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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6623372" data-attributes="member: 2067">That's part of the problem though - if you're just gonna crib what's been done before, it's not really different or distinct. I'd be stoked to see folks proposing new, solid mechanical elements. But "It's like X, but you use different jargon!" is not gonna cut it. No one's suggesting that it's impossible. But I am suggesting that this repeated insistence on "IT CAN'T BE A SUBCLASS OF WIZARD!" is a little pointlessly myopic when every description of how it is different seems to boil down to proficiencies and a spell list. If that is the only distinction, it IS a subclass of wizard. If there is more distinction, show it.If all it is is a unique powers list (that mostly duplicates spells) and the power point mechanic from the DMG, it is going to suck. It is going to be cruft and clutter. If it has a unique mechanical element, it might earn its place. Again, it's not an argument about what we decide can be a class - we can decide ANYTHING can be a class. It's an argument about the work you actually need to do to make it a class and that seems to be what a lot of the artificer-as-a-class crowd seems to be blithely ignoring in favor of insisting that buffs and medium armor and Thieves' Tools proficiency are somehow forbidden from Wizards. I think the first question we need to answer (because it has level 1 ramifications) is this: does the artificer class (a) essentially use Spellcasting to infuse items, or does it (b) use some other mechanic to infuse items and ALSO cast spells to infuse items, or does it (c) never use Spellcasting to infuse items and ONLY uses some infusion mechanic?The 3e/4e artificer essentially took option A. The most direct conversion would keep that. What direction do we want this design to explore?And if we go with B or C, what is the difference in play between infusion and spellcasting? Because it needs to be significant.</blockquote>

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