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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6623464" data-attributes="member: 2067">I don't quite get the intent here - are infusions just ritual spells? If so, why not just give artificers ritual casting? The second bit is basically how cleric spellcasting works, but I'm unclear on the fictional reasoning for it here. For cleircs, it's just "all gods grant this pool of spells, plus domain spells" but for Artificers, there's no force that limits them like that. So why do all artificers know exactly the same inflexible list of infusions? Is every single one like a graduate from the same House Cannith school? If I want to customize my artificer by taking different kinds of rituals, why is that something I can't do? So, ritual casting is a fine ability and makes sense for them. But they're going to need more than that to contribute. The current ritual casters also have spellcasting - should they get that, too? Or should they have some sort of "rituals-only" list (which would put them more in column B or C)?I'm confused about the intent here, too. So artificers can use holy avengers? And gain warlock spell slots from the rod of the pact keeper? Is the main idea to have them use wands and scrolls and staves? Does the Charisma check last only for a single use, or does it let them use it indefinitely? And why CHARISMA? Are artificers supposed to be charming and suave and influential leaders? Why isn't figuring out how to use a magic item an Intelligence check, say?This ability seems fine in concept, but I think we should lock down more specifically what the intent is and define it narrowly rather than having DMs frustrated by a party artificer who just takes EVERY magic item for themselves. Again, lets not trap alternate item crafting mechanics in a class. The artificer makes scrolls like anyone else makes scrolls (maybe with some time/money advantages). If the DMG rules don't work for that, lets get some ideas for new rules for Eberron and not just give them to an artificer. This mechanic has a more subtle problem as well: this ability works better as an NPC than as a PC. Scribe some scrolls and send your party out with the scrolls and there's no real need for you to be present at all. They come back to town at the end of the day and you top 'em up. In fact, given the ability check to mimic other spells, this also steals thunder from other classes if the artificer DOES tag along. That's not the artificer having its own identity, that's the artificer basically being some other class by proxy. Not cool.So looks like you think B-style spellcasting works. That's cool, but then an artificer needs some oomph to equal a paladin/ranger - something like Divine Smite and Natural Explorer. Rituals are fine, but they're not enough by themselves (they're maybe a Favored Enemy or Divine Sense in scope)Same applies to scroll crafting here. ...and now we're beyond 2nd level without a defining mechanic. We gotta get that in earlier. Expertise makes some sense, but it should be different/more limited than the Rogue version. I'm REALLY reluctant to let the artificer loot the DMG for items to add to the party a la carte. The items in the DMG were not made with that mind. Big thing is that you're still missing a central mechanic. Making an item isn't an active contribution to the party. It is something you do during down-time. They also need to be able to fire on all three pillars, and this version is pretty myopic, not really directly contributing to any of them except by looting other class's spells and rituals. What does it look like when an artificer explores the dungeon or talks at the noble banquet? What do they do there that no other class can do?Also, being able to mimic other class's spell list is problematic. It can be done to a limited extent smartly, but "make an ability check to make an item that does anything any other spell in the game can do" is way too broad and not very future-proof. Ritual casting and expertise and B-style spellcasting are a skeleton, but item crafting doesn't work as a defining mechanic, especially when they can just give these items to their buddies who then can go out and use them without needing to bring the artificer along.</blockquote>

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