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Proficiency vs. Ability vs. Expertise
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<blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 7644969" data-attributes="member: 6987520"><p>Rogues were not skill experts before 3E. So, history has nothing to do with it. The rogue (and the fighter) <em>are</em> mundane classes, but even they have archetypes which blend into using spells (Arcane Trickster/ Eldritch Knight). I don't expect them to compete with spellcasting because they run out, but expertise doesn't.</p><p></p><p>I "get" the balance reasons, I just don't agree those are valid justifications for the bard/rogue and expertise to be superior in skills to all other classes (unless an archetype happens to grant expertise, just as the Domain of Knowledge for clerics). Sure, I can offer limited (once only) expertise to other classes, but then people complain about stepping on the bard/rogue's toes...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right. And I don't think they should be able to be better (or at least not as much, as I have stated before a one or two point difference I could probably be okay with...). I don't think fighters should get more attacks, well, or that non-fighters should get a third maybe at 15th level or something. I am fine with a fighter potentially having that 4th attack, one over a 3-attack increase for others, at level 20 because it is one way to represent their edge. Maybe other classes shouldn't get extra attack until 7th or 8th levels, even. What I do think is that fighters should have other ways to represent their ability. And they get those (maneuvers, increased critical range, etc.) to some degree, and we have house-ruled others that help in minor ways. While other battler classes develop other abilities, such as spells, faster movement, etc., the fighter excels at making their weapon deal more damage, hence we have a new fighter feature, Increased Weapon Damage (3rd level and 13th level).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, so that is also done because average AC doesn't increase as much as average DC for tasks. Few monsters have AC's in the 20's, let alone the high 20's. And by then attacks are two per round or more against them. Skill DCs, though can be in the mid-20's in Tier 1 and hit 30 faster.</p><p></p><p>You mention save DCs, which align with attacks in that they are limited to +11. Most skills are limited to +11, the sole exception being expertise features. And as I stated in another post, a rogue with expertise needs about a 6 to beat the passive perceptions they are likely to encounter over the course of their career. A 6 or better isn't too hard to make (and that is without buffs, etc. and against hard/deadly level challenges).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Great. So we are back to the issue I had earlier. Here I had hoped maybe you would actually want to try to offer suggestions to help instead of trying to explain why a problem doesn't exist. I explained my issues and instead of offering solutions, you told me why they shouldn't be issues. They ARE issues caused by expertise inflating skills so what should be challenging becomes routine, which is boring.</p><p></p><p>I am going back to the drawing board and continue to create other features that will enhance fighters and rogues in ways that make sense, keep the game fun and offer more options, etc. Let me know if you come up with something along those lines.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DND_Reborn, post: 7644969, member: 6987520"] Rogues were not skill experts before 3E. So, history has nothing to do with it. The rogue (and the fighter) [I]are[/I] mundane classes, but even they have archetypes which blend into using spells (Arcane Trickster/ Eldritch Knight). I don't expect them to compete with spellcasting because they run out, but expertise doesn't. I "get" the balance reasons, I just don't agree those are valid justifications for the bard/rogue and expertise to be superior in skills to all other classes (unless an archetype happens to grant expertise, just as the Domain of Knowledge for clerics). Sure, I can offer limited (once only) expertise to other classes, but then people complain about stepping on the bard/rogue's toes... Right. And I don't think they should be able to be better (or at least not as much, as I have stated before a one or two point difference I could probably be okay with...). I don't think fighters should get more attacks, well, or that non-fighters should get a third maybe at 15th level or something. I am fine with a fighter potentially having that 4th attack, one over a 3-attack increase for others, at level 20 because it is one way to represent their edge. Maybe other classes shouldn't get extra attack until 7th or 8th levels, even. What I do think is that fighters should have other ways to represent their ability. And they get those (maneuvers, increased critical range, etc.) to some degree, and we have house-ruled others that help in minor ways. While other battler classes develop other abilities, such as spells, faster movement, etc., the fighter excels at making their weapon deal more damage, hence we have a new fighter feature, Increased Weapon Damage (3rd level and 13th level). Okay, so that is also done because average AC doesn't increase as much as average DC for tasks. Few monsters have AC's in the 20's, let alone the high 20's. And by then attacks are two per round or more against them. Skill DCs, though can be in the mid-20's in Tier 1 and hit 30 faster. You mention save DCs, which align with attacks in that they are limited to +11. Most skills are limited to +11, the sole exception being expertise features. And as I stated in another post, a rogue with expertise needs about a 6 to beat the passive perceptions they are likely to encounter over the course of their career. A 6 or better isn't too hard to make (and that is without buffs, etc. and against hard/deadly level challenges). Great. So we are back to the issue I had earlier. Here I had hoped maybe you would actually want to try to offer suggestions to help instead of trying to explain why a problem doesn't exist. I explained my issues and instead of offering solutions, you told me why they shouldn't be issues. They ARE issues caused by expertise inflating skills so what should be challenging becomes routine, which is boring. I am going back to the drawing board and continue to create other features that will enhance fighters and rogues in ways that make sense, keep the game fun and offer more options, etc. Let me know if you come up with something along those lines. [/QUOTE]
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