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Proficiency vs. Ability vs. Expertise
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<blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 7645036" data-attributes="member: 6987520"><p>Sorry for any confusion. Skill bonuses alone are fine (proficiency and ability), even with the +8/+4 split I prefer, but the straight boost from expertise it what puts it over the top for me. That is why I would prefer to apply a different mechanic to expertise, where bards/rogues would get new options or even an edge such as advantage when compared to other classes when it comes to skills. But a numerical "boost" that just makes them "better" for the sake of giving them a "thing" is not a good reason to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I apologize but throughout the thread I have been bounced around and sometimes deviated from the OP. But to address your statement, I have to say this is how I am feeling (and our table generally agrees) and what we would like to see:</p><p></p><p><em>"If the issue is that expertise makes too many things auto-succeed, which isn't fun for the expertise player, I can get behind that"</em></p><p></p><p>Stealth: due to low (extremely so in many cases) passive perception, it is nearly automatic with expertise. His bonus at level 9 is +12 (DEX 18) I think. Over 90% of the foes we face have passive perceptions ranging from 10-16, and then the odd one or two higher than that. So, he routinely only needs a 4 or better. Now, this is not including any buffs our party can lay on him, such as using Enhance Ability for up to an hour to grant him advantage on his stealth checks.</p><p></p><p>Logic: the same rogue has expertise in Athletics and is pretty strong (STR 16), which is not very common, admittedly, but very possible, and so he is +11. But, compare this to an Ogre with STR 19, with no proficiency in Athletics, let alone expertise, who only gets a +4. With that difference of +7, he rogue will WIN (not tie) over 77% of the time and have the Ogre "grappled". Now, this half-orc rogue is about 250 lbs with his gear, but due to size and strength, the Ogre can lift well over 1000 lbs. So, shouldn't the Ogre be able to lift the rogue and basically toss him like a child? I get characters are supposed to be heroic, and technique in things like grappling can allow a much smaller and weaker person control a larger one, but even with that consideration this strains reason to me. I think if you are trying to grapple a larger creature (even one size) should impose disadvantage. Likewise, perhaps when trying to grapple a smaller creature, they should have advantage to escape? I go round-and-round about these...</p><p></p><p>Giving all classes some limited access to an expertise option removes some issues (such as high arcana between a rogue and wizard, etc.), but the issue of the number boost still remains, so I don't see that, in and of itself, as a solution.</p><p></p><p><em>"If the issue is that getting a higher bonus doesn't do enough to distinguish a character's chances of success, that's also something I can get behind"</em></p><p></p><p>Going to a 2d10 system allows for a smaller spread of bonuses to have the same effect as a larger bonus on d20. For example, +8 on 2d10 leads to roughly the same probability as +12 on d20 in a contested roll. Using 2d10, a max bonus of +13 would equate to +17 on d20 more or less. I don't know if this is the answer or not, but if I did it I would probably do it across the board and do it with attacks and saves, not just skill checks. With ACs and save DCs bounded, I don't think initially this would be a bad thing but it will require further thought.</p><p></p><p><em>"the expertise bonus *has* to be big to create a meaningful differentiation"</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Agree. Or it has to contribute meaningfully in another way that gives is a strong purpose.</p><p></p><p><em>"if the issue is that you don't think rogues and bards should be better at at-will mundane skill rolls than other classes, then I'm not particularly interested in helping"</em></p><p></p><p>Well, not in the sense of a straight number boost over other classes; no, I don't think they should be. As noted, allowing some limited expertise to other classes removes that particular issue, but the high bonus issue remains, regardless.</p><p></p><p>It is quite a bit to wrap one's head around, and at times I feel like I am going in circles LOL! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DND_Reborn, post: 7645036, member: 6987520"] Sorry for any confusion. Skill bonuses alone are fine (proficiency and ability), even with the +8/+4 split I prefer, but the straight boost from expertise it what puts it over the top for me. That is why I would prefer to apply a different mechanic to expertise, where bards/rogues would get new options or even an edge such as advantage when compared to other classes when it comes to skills. But a numerical "boost" that just makes them "better" for the sake of giving them a "thing" is not a good reason to me. Well, I apologize but throughout the thread I have been bounced around and sometimes deviated from the OP. But to address your statement, I have to say this is how I am feeling (and our table generally agrees) and what we would like to see: [I]"If the issue is that expertise makes too many things auto-succeed, which isn't fun for the expertise player, I can get behind that"[/I] Stealth: due to low (extremely so in many cases) passive perception, it is nearly automatic with expertise. His bonus at level 9 is +12 (DEX 18) I think. Over 90% of the foes we face have passive perceptions ranging from 10-16, and then the odd one or two higher than that. So, he routinely only needs a 4 or better. Now, this is not including any buffs our party can lay on him, such as using Enhance Ability for up to an hour to grant him advantage on his stealth checks. Logic: the same rogue has expertise in Athletics and is pretty strong (STR 16), which is not very common, admittedly, but very possible, and so he is +11. But, compare this to an Ogre with STR 19, with no proficiency in Athletics, let alone expertise, who only gets a +4. With that difference of +7, he rogue will WIN (not tie) over 77% of the time and have the Ogre "grappled". Now, this half-orc rogue is about 250 lbs with his gear, but due to size and strength, the Ogre can lift well over 1000 lbs. So, shouldn't the Ogre be able to lift the rogue and basically toss him like a child? I get characters are supposed to be heroic, and technique in things like grappling can allow a much smaller and weaker person control a larger one, but even with that consideration this strains reason to me. I think if you are trying to grapple a larger creature (even one size) should impose disadvantage. Likewise, perhaps when trying to grapple a smaller creature, they should have advantage to escape? I go round-and-round about these... Giving all classes some limited access to an expertise option removes some issues (such as high arcana between a rogue and wizard, etc.), but the issue of the number boost still remains, so I don't see that, in and of itself, as a solution. [I]"If the issue is that getting a higher bonus doesn't do enough to distinguish a character's chances of success, that's also something I can get behind"[/I] Going to a 2d10 system allows for a smaller spread of bonuses to have the same effect as a larger bonus on d20. For example, +8 on 2d10 leads to roughly the same probability as +12 on d20 in a contested roll. Using 2d10, a max bonus of +13 would equate to +17 on d20 more or less. I don't know if this is the answer or not, but if I did it I would probably do it across the board and do it with attacks and saves, not just skill checks. With ACs and save DCs bounded, I don't think initially this would be a bad thing but it will require further thought. [I]"the expertise bonus *has* to be big to create a meaningful differentiation" [/I] Agree. Or it has to contribute meaningfully in another way that gives is a strong purpose. [I]"if the issue is that you don't think rogues and bards should be better at at-will mundane skill rolls than other classes, then I'm not particularly interested in helping"[/I] Well, not in the sense of a straight number boost over other classes; no, I don't think they should be. As noted, allowing some limited expertise to other classes removes that particular issue, but the high bonus issue remains, regardless. It is quite a bit to wrap one's head around, and at times I feel like I am going in circles LOL! :) [/QUOTE]
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