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Proficiency vs. Ability vs. Expertise
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<blockquote data-quote="Cap'n Kobold" data-source="post: 7645054" data-attributes="member: 6802951"><p>Rogues started out as the <em>only</em> class that could attempts some tasks that are now considered skills. 3e allowed other classes to use skills such as picking locks and disarming traps, but still reinforced the Rogue as the best class in doing that sort of thing.</p><p></p><p> If you're trying to make skill use more similar to combat to justify lower bonuses and differentiation, you could do so by making skill use scale in the same way: by attritional failure states.</p><p>This would also help keep skills like stealth relevant if the bonus is going to go down compared to passive perception.</p><p></p><p>So instead of a stealth failure leading to the Rogue being discovered and attacked, that monster is now more alert, and requires the rogue to succeed in more checks, rather than the rogue being discovered, possibly mobbed and killed, and the monsters being alerted.</p><p></p><p>The point that I think that you need to bear in mind is that needing a 6 or better is not automatic success. There is a chance of failing and being discovered as soon as you try. More to the point, by the time the rogue needs to sneak past <em>two </em>monsters, their chance is <em>under 50%</em>.</p><p></p><p>I did indeed mention save DCs, but you missed where I said comparing them with saving throw bonuses in a comparison similar to the one that you did with attacks vs AC. I think that they max out at 19, however many creatures do not have proficiency in saving throws. More to the point, the ability to use spells targeting different save abilities means that they're often against an ability with a low bonus.</p><p></p><p> I understand that you and your group are having these issues, and am working off that basis when making suggestions. However, I thought it important to mention where I'm coming from to help explain why I'm having trouble understanding the requirements and what the actual aim is.</p><p></p><p>Have you seen the Unearthed Arcanas on skill and combat feats? How would those work as Rogue and Fighter-only options?</p><p></p><p> OK. Needs a 4. That's a good chance, but he still has a less than 50% chance of being undetected by the time he has tried to sneak past what? Four enemies? </p><p>Depending on the situation, that might just be alerting the monsters, or being mobbed and killed before the rest of the party could get to them.</p><p>What sort of thing does your rogue actually use stealth for?</p><p></p><p> The image of the relatively weaker master of aikido or similar being able to jointlock a hulking brute twice their size is a pretty common trope. Practically a stereotype.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cap'n Kobold, post: 7645054, member: 6802951"] Rogues started out as the [I]only[/I] class that could attempts some tasks that are now considered skills. 3e allowed other classes to use skills such as picking locks and disarming traps, but still reinforced the Rogue as the best class in doing that sort of thing. If you're trying to make skill use more similar to combat to justify lower bonuses and differentiation, you could do so by making skill use scale in the same way: by attritional failure states. This would also help keep skills like stealth relevant if the bonus is going to go down compared to passive perception. So instead of a stealth failure leading to the Rogue being discovered and attacked, that monster is now more alert, and requires the rogue to succeed in more checks, rather than the rogue being discovered, possibly mobbed and killed, and the monsters being alerted. The point that I think that you need to bear in mind is that needing a 6 or better is not automatic success. There is a chance of failing and being discovered as soon as you try. More to the point, by the time the rogue needs to sneak past [I]two [/I]monsters, their chance is [I]under 50%[/I]. I did indeed mention save DCs, but you missed where I said comparing them with saving throw bonuses in a comparison similar to the one that you did with attacks vs AC. I think that they max out at 19, however many creatures do not have proficiency in saving throws. More to the point, the ability to use spells targeting different save abilities means that they're often against an ability with a low bonus. I understand that you and your group are having these issues, and am working off that basis when making suggestions. However, I thought it important to mention where I'm coming from to help explain why I'm having trouble understanding the requirements and what the actual aim is. Have you seen the Unearthed Arcanas on skill and combat feats? How would those work as Rogue and Fighter-only options? OK. Needs a 4. That's a good chance, but he still has a less than 50% chance of being undetected by the time he has tried to sneak past what? Four enemies? Depending on the situation, that might just be alerting the monsters, or being mobbed and killed before the rest of the party could get to them. What sort of thing does your rogue actually use stealth for? The image of the relatively weaker master of aikido or similar being able to jointlock a hulking brute twice their size is a pretty common trope. Practically a stereotype. [/QUOTE]
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