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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 7646090" data-attributes="member: 6987520">Yeah, I just did the math myself and it is worse than a flat +2. Shoot! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />If that is what you've gotten then I suggest you stop worrying about it. I've explained it many times and yet you keep asking me to repeat myself. I will do it one more time as clearly as possible:Expertise inflates numbers so DCs are no longer challenges and thus reduce the fun because hard and more difficult tasks become routine, sometimes to the point of being near automatic. The greatest offender is Stealth vs. passive (or even active) perception as I have outlined repeatedly, although there are others.My goal: reduce the impact of expertise on numbers so higher values cannot be achieved through it. Offer alternatives that makes expertise viable in other ways and create more options for players.By increasing proficiency to +8, DCs can still be reached (even if at less probability) and now without expertise, allowing other classes to excel if they choose to, thus removing the illogical and poorly-thought-of idea that rogues and bards should be able to reach higher numbers more easily than others.Doubling proficiency is a simple mechanic which leaves other characters feeling inadequate (Ranger: I'll scout the caves! Party: Let the Rogue do it, he is better. Wizard: I'll decipher that rune! Party: Let the Rogue do it, he is better. etc.). Rogues and Bards are already pretty balanced without the expertise mechanic as is. Offering Bards more skill proficiency slots makes so much more sense. Giving Rogue unique features does as well. There are other ways they can still be "skill monkeys" instead of just reaching higher numbers. In earlier editions when rogues got more skill points, they were still capped at the same maximum as other classes IIRC (I could be wrong, it has been years!).I hope that is clear enough.While I appreciate your contributions immensely, I feel like you are doing them with one hand tied behind your back (and no expertise in acrobatics to escape!) because you like the idea that these classes can hit numbers higher than others without either an archetype feature or dipping into rogue. I don't (obviously) and there is no justification for it other than "let's give these guys something no one else can do." So, why should they? Rogues can still fight, and in their own way nearly as well as the other battler classes. Bards GET spells and other features already! So, why should they get something else?I like the idea of the expertise die based on the variant rule. You have a 50/50 chance the expert will roll above proficiency, thus gaining a bonus for that check. If you want it slightly better, maybe make it a d6 or d8 at first, and escalate it like superiority dice, to a maximum of a d20 even? I don't know, I would have to do the math on that as well to see if it works or grants too much benefit IMO. In fact, a superior dice mechanic similar to Battlemaster might work well, allowing expertise a limited number of boosts per short rest. I am not personally in favor for that option because I dislike the bookkeeping of superiority dice, but it is an option perhaps worth exploring.EDIT: Here is a run modeling Skill Expertise after the battlemaster:Skill ExpertiseAt 1st level (3rd for Bards), you gain skill expertise and learn tricks to enhance your skills and expertise dice to increase your chances of success.Tricks. You learn two tricks of your choice, which are detailed under "Tricks" below. These tricks enhance skill checks in some way. You can only use one trick per skill check.You learn two additional tricks of your choice at 6th level (10th for bards). [Maybe more at higher levels as well?]Expertise DiceYou have four expertise dice, which are d6s. An expertise dice is spent when you use it. You regain all of your expended expertise dice when you finish a short or long rest.When you make a skill check, you can choose to expend an expertise die and add the result of rolling the expertise die to your skill check.You gain another expertise die at 7th level (11th for Bards) and one more at 15th level (18th for Bards).Improved Skill ExpertiseAt 10th level, your expertise dice turn into d10s. At 18th level, they turn into d20s.Tricks(use your imagination LOL! You can't expect me to do it all. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> )</blockquote>

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