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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Esker" data-source="post: 7646687" data-attributes="member: 6966824">By the ceiling, I mean the highest possible roll. The floor is the lowest possible roll. Ordinarily the ceiling is 20 plus modifier, and the floor is 1 plus modifier. The issue with some skill checks becoming near-automatic arises when the floor is too close to the DC. So to address that particular problem, you can try to lower the floor. If the only knob you have at your disposal is the modifier, you can't move the floor without moving the ceiling the same amount. Expertise as written raises both. But some mechanics decouple these: reliable talent, along with some similar proposals in this thread, raise the floor without touching the ceiling. But if you're trying to reduce near-automatic successes, that's the opposite of what you want. Simply reducing the bonus granted by expertise addresses that problem, but at the cost of making the rogue worse. One of my proposals was to lower the floor and raise the ceiling, giving the rogue value for value while addressing the bounded accuracy problem. But [MENTION=6987520]dnd4vr[/MENTION] objects to the rogue having a higher ceiling because... reasons? It's not because of bounded accuracy though.</blockquote>