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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8993067" data-attributes="member: 83242"><p><h2><u>5e Monsters by Level</u><strong><u> (not CR)</u></strong></h2><p>I loved that 4e (and now PF2e) had monsters by level and not CR. It made things conceptually clear: 1 standard monster = 1 PC at the same level. I have often thought about doing something like this for 5e, so today is the day I give it a go!</p><p></p><h3>Project Goals</h3> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Redefine monsters based on PC level, no more CR.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bring back monster breadth via 4e style monster roles: Solo, Elite, Standard, Grunt, Minion</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make encounter building easier</li> </ul><h3>Project Assumptions</h3> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A monster of equal level to a PC is a challenge for that single PC.  Roughly 1 Monster = 1 PC.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A combat between a PC and Monster of the same level is a 50/50 chance of success/defeat.</li> </ul><p>Here is version 5 of my Monster Stats by Level  table based in 20th level PCs I then averaged those into an "Average PC. You can review the google sheet I used to determine the values below: <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u9L74_CRyQ_YjOhGIAxHTXvbhf_gT9LQ_fHF44F2W1U/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">D&D 5e: Average PC</a></p><p></p><h3>[ATTACH=full]371438[/ATTACH]</h3><p>version 6</p><h3></h3><h3><u>EDIT: see spoiler below for original OP.</u></h3><p></p><h3>[spoiler][/spoiler]</h3><p>[spoiler]</p><h3>What is a Challenge</h3><p>For this concept to work, I need an easy / simple definition of what constitutes a challenge. To me, a challenge is encounter where there is reasonable chance of failure. That is not the case in any of the levels of difficulty described in the DMG. Therefore, I am developing a new metric to use for this exercise.</p><p></p><p>I have decided to base a monster's challenge on the Monster's XP verses a single PCs Adventuring Day XP (AD XP) in the DMG. My first thought was to base the monster's XP on the full AD XP. However, I don't trully want a challenge to be 50/50. It should be difficult, IMO, but generaly winnable. The DM can always have more or higher level monster's to make things tougher. So I have currently decided a monster of equal level to a PC has an XP value of 50% of the PC's AD XP.</p><h3>[spoiler=Adventuring Day XP][/spoiler]</h3><p>[spoiler=Adventuring Day XP]</p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>Level</th><th>Adjusted XP per Day per Character</th></tr><tr><td>1st</td><td>300</td></tr><tr><td>2nd</td><td>600</td></tr><tr><td>3rd</td><td>1,200</td></tr><tr><td>4th</td><td>1,700</td></tr><tr><td>5th</td><td>3,500</td></tr><tr><td>6th</td><td>4,000</td></tr><tr><td>7th</td><td>5,000</td></tr><tr><td>8th</td><td>6,000</td></tr><tr><td>9th</td><td>7,500</td></tr><tr><td>10th</td><td>9,000</td></tr><tr><td>11th</td><td>10,500</td></tr><tr><td>12th</td><td>11,500</td></tr><tr><td>13th</td><td>13,500</td></tr><tr><td>14th</td><td>15,000</td></tr><tr><td>15th</td><td>18,000</td></tr><tr><td>16th</td><td>20,000</td></tr><tr><td>17th</td><td>25,000</td></tr><tr><td>18th</td><td>27,000</td></tr><tr><td>19th</td><td>30,000</td></tr><tr><td>20th</td><td>40,000</td></tr></table><h3></h3><p>[/spoiler]</p><h3></h3><p>Based on this definition of a challenge, a monster should fall within the following exp values per level</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>PC Level</th><th>Standard Monster Expected XP</th></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>150</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>300</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>600</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>850</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>1,750</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>2,000</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>2,500</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>3,000</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>3,750</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>4,500</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>5,250</td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>5,750</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>6,750</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>7,500</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>9,000</td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>10,000</td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>12,500</td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>13,500</td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td>15,000</td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>20,000</td></tr></table><h3></h3><h3>What's this about Monster Roles?</h3><p>More to come.</p><p></p><h3>Examples</h3><p>Ok, let's look at a few examples using the table above. Remember this is a monster equivalent to 1 PC at the given level:</p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>Level</th><th>Monster</th><th>Expected XP</th><th>Actual XP</th></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>Orc (CR 1)</td><td>150</td><td>100</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>Ettin (CR 4)</td><td>1,750</td><td>1,100</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>Frost Giant (CR 8)</td><td>4,500</td><td>3,900</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>Arcanaloth (CR 12)</td><td>9,000</td><td>8,400</td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>Death Knight (CR 17)</td><td>20,000</td><td>18,000</td></tr></table><p></p><h3>Issues</h3><p>Immediately I am seeing some issues with my idea. Clearly the 5e design monster design was not intended for this type of balance. I am also seeing that monsters are very dangerous at lower level and less so at higher levels. I will have to think about this more, but it may not be possible to convert existing monsters. I may need to make them from scratch. Also, think the metrics of a "challenge" may need to be revised.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I would love to hear your thoughts.</p><h3></h3><p>[/spoiler]</p><h3></h3></blockquote><p></p>

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