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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kerrick" data-source="post: 5022844" data-attributes="member: 4722">True. But you could reduce just about any class to a collection of feats.Let's compare, just for fun... Ftr 10/Clr 10 (Bob) vs. Pal 20 (Frank):In PP stats: Bob has BAB +16 and saves of +12/+8/+11. Frank has BAB +20 and saves of +12/+8/+12.Bob has 13 feats (5 bonus, 1 for human, 7 from levels) two combat style abilities, and two weapon feats. Frank has 7 feats (including WF with his god's weapon), smite, lay on hands, four auras, turn undead, five divine touch abilities, and a bonded mount or bonded weapon.Bob has 5th level spells (6/5/4/4/3/2/2) and an effective CL of 12 (see <a href="http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/classes:multiclass-spellcasters" target="_blank">Multiclass Spellcasters</a>). Frank has 4th level spells (4/4/3/2/2) and an effective caster level of 10.Sure, Bob's got the edge in number of feats, along with his combat styles and bonus feats, but Frank has a higher BAB, more attacks, smiting, and possibly the bonded weapon. Given that smiting is conditional, it's probably a toss-up who's better in battle, though Bob could choose enough feats to make him more effective.Bob has the edge in spellpower - paladin spells are drawn from the cleric list, but he's got an extra level of spells and a wider repertoire, as well as nearly twice as many spells total. With the MC spellcaster rules, he also gets a boost to his caster level, which gives him a definite advantage (and that reminds me - I think I'll change paladin/ranger CL to class level -3. Didn't PF do that?). But, Frank has the aura of might (SR = class level + Cha bonus) to balance it.Now, if we were to compare those two in 3.5 stats, Bob would probably stomp Frank into the dirt - his BAB is still lower, but all his saves are way higher, and Frank's ability to smite evil would do him zero good against the TN Bob. Bob doesn't gain any benefit from his fighter levels toward his caster level, but he still outclasses Frank magically (mainly because paladin spells suck - how come they don't get things like divine power, spell immunity, or righteous might??).So... while I pretty much proved your point, it gives me some ideas of what to do to improve the paladin: better (more martial) spells, higher CL, and maybe some knight-like abilities. I think paladin as "champion of their god" is a viable concept, though, and more... appropriate, shall we say, than a cleric who's simply taken fighter levels. A paladin is a holy knight; a cleric/fighter is a martial cleric (and a layman fighter would be a templar - someone with no actual magical abilities, but who fights for god and church). I think giving paladins more of their own, unique, spells that aid them in combat would go a long way to making them a more unique class, as opposed to a "fighter/cleric". Their auras already grant them and their allies lots of nice benefits, and the divine touch is handy to have (frees up a cleric's spells for other things, as well as the paladin's own).</blockquote>

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