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Message: <blockquote data-quote="aboyd" data-source="post: 4739614" data-attributes="member: 44797">Hmm.  Sorry for posting 2 replies in a row, but after re-reading my response, I think I stumbled onto why Tyrloch is thinking the way he is thinking.Tyrloch, do you think that if a situation is difficult that it means that the Dexterity bonus is gone?  Do you think that if a situation is difficult, that the rogue should get a sneak attack?  Because that's not at all what this stuff means, and it might explain your disconnect from the rules text.The rules set a higher bar than "things are tough."  The rules expect that a rogue can only sneak attack when the opponent is unable to move or evade.  If you are "reacting but in a bad circumstance," you're still reacting.  According to the rules, able to react = no sneak attack.For example, if you are flat-footed, you are in a state where you don't yet know the rogue is there or at least you haven't yet processed what you've seen or heard.  So you are completely vulnerable in the sense that you have no presence of mind to do anything about the attack.  OK?  The rogue rushes up behind you in complete silence, and you are whistling a tune as you walk obliviously.  You do not so much as wave your hand in his way.  You are unable to use any form of movement or evasion to prevent what he's doing, because you don't know that you need to do that.That's a loss of the Dex bonus -- no presence of mind to move or evade, or else no ability to move or evade.If you are merely on the floor, you're still able to move.  You're still aware.  You can swat, kick, roll, squirm, throw dirt, swing a sword and hope to parry, etc.  You are at a disadvantage, yes.  But that doesn't mean you're not reacting.Same thing with flanking.  The reason a rogue can sneak attack on a flank isn't because "we've put the enemy in a tough spot."  If that were the criteria, then any tough situation -- even plain old normal combat -- would be a candidate for sneak attack.  Instead, it's because the defender has to split his attention, so you are again getting him to look away or otherwise not know to move or defend against your incoming strike.  Because he doesn't see what you're doing for even a split-second, he doesn't know to defend against you.  And boom, the rogue sneak attacks.Let me put it another way.  I think you might think "-4 to AC from prone" and "guy with 18 Dex loses his bonus" are the same.  I mean, the math makes them the same, right?  A guy with an 18 Dex has a +4 to AC normally.  When he loses that, it's the equivalent of -4 to AC, just like being prone.  However, the penalties do different things even if the math comes out the same.A guy with -4 to AC from being prone is still able to squirm and flip around and kick and so on, but he's on his butt.  He's fighting, but he isn't in the best of circumstances.  Because he's fighting, even poorly, he's able to fend off or foil strikes that require amazing precision (sneak attacks).A guy that has lost his Dex bonus just can't react.  He isn't kicking.  He isn't blocking.  He isn't flipping around, isn't ducking, isn't anything.  And because of it, the rogue can find that unguarded chink in the armor and slip a blade through and jiggle it all around until some internal organs are pureed.BOTH guys might have an AC of 14.  But their reasons for their AC of 14 are completely different.  The guy kicking & slashing at everyone's feet is in a bad position but is dangerous.  The guy walking along blissfully unaware might have armor on, but he is not causing harm or endangering anyone.  They might be equally hard to get at (both with an AC of 14) but for very different reasons.The reasons matter when it comes to a rogue's sneak attack ability.  It is only those who are unaware or unable to react that can be sneak attacked.  A guy with a "harsh penalty" just isn't enough, according to the rules.You really want to tweak your brain, consider this.  A guy with a 10 Dexterity gets entangled.  This imposes a -4 penalty to Dexterity, so it causes his dexterity to be 6.  Everything he does Dexterity-wise is now at -2.  He tries to swing a sword, he's at -2 to hit.  Bad situation, right?Now consider a guy who has a Dexterity of 18 and loses his Dexterity bonus, either from being stunned or blinded or cowering or any other state that denies a Dex bonus on page 300 of the DMG.  Well, if he loses his Dex bonus of +4, he's still better off than the entangled guy with the 6 Dexterity, right?  Nope.  The guy who has the 18 Dexterity is worse off, because being denied his Dex bonus implies that he can't evade at all.If your Dexterity is 6 from a penalty, you still have hope that you can get out alive.  You might run and trip, but at least you're trying.If your Dexterity is 18 but you've been denied your bonus, you're in deep crap.  Except for being flat-footed (which thankfully is transient), most states that deny a Dex bonus mean long-term BAD news.  You probably can't flee.  You're likely incapacitated.  And you're definitely a prime candidate to get sneak attacked.</blockquote>

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