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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Uller" data-source="post: 320301" data-attributes="member: 413">Ummm guys?  We've been over this in SOOOO many other "broken" threads...A straight up duel between two PC characters is in no way a valid arguement to prove that something is broken...Sure...a wizard (or a sorcerer or cleric) can lay the smack down on ANY other class in straight up fight beyond 7th level or so if the spell caster is fresh and prepared for that exact fight.  That's always been a fact in D&D.  Stacking empower hasn't brought anything new there.  An 11th level wizard prepared for killing fighters should be able to kill or incapacitate an 11th level fighter in a duel situation in about a round or two...without stacking metamagic feats...For instance:  11th level Specialist necromancer with 22 Int and a spell focus feat.  Assume he casts lots of buff spells prior to combat like fly, improved invisibility, stone skin, etc...Round 1: Haste followed by DisintegrateRound 2: Disintegrate, Disintegrate After two rounds, the fighter is likely dead.  DC would be 23.  Fighter with a 22 con would have a +13 or so Fort save...chances of making ALL THREE saves is roughly 15%.  Even if he makes all three, he's lost 52 hitpoints which isn't trivial for an 11th level fighter (131 on average with a 22 con).Or if the fighter can't fly...Telekinesis (poor weak willed fighter...).  Lift him up 200 feet.  Drop him.  20d6 damage.  Repeat until dead.There are many many ways for a wizard to mash a fighter or equal level with only a couple spells.  No fighter can prepare for every possible magical attack.The disadvantage that the wizard has is he runs out of smack down spells eventually (even quickly), where the fighter can deal the same damage round after round as long as he stays alive.  So...yes!  It is valid for the fighter to teleport away, heal and come back.  As long as he does so before the wizard can reprepare his best spells, he's got a MAJOR advantage.The point of game balance is not how well one character can destroy another character.  It is whether or not all characters can affect the game in a meaningful way.  I'm running a 15th level game right now and I'm finding the archer types to be the most effective combatants.  The wizard is great for gathering info and moving the party around and what not, but can't be counted on to smack around powerful opponents too much because they all have all sorts of crazy resistances and immunities (but none are immune to those pesky +5 arrows and swords!)So the best we can see one of these spells do is a couple hundred hitpoints of damage without Improved Metamagic.  Are you going to go up and deliever an empowered Vampric touch on a Great Wyrm Red Dragon?  I think not (that's what harm is for <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" />)  Seems Improved Metamagic is the culprit here...otherwise empower is fine.</blockquote>

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