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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GnomeWorks" data-source="post: 2598248" data-attributes="member: 162">I don't see how it's "scary" anymore; I'd definitely agree that it started out that way, but it's definitely not anymore <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.  For one, you have to remember that most monster's abilities are incredibly reminiscent of spells of one form or another; talents are therefore pretty much arcane spells that don't scale, with possibly a few added benefits (no countering, can cast in armor, etc).  Sure, learning a red dragon's breath weapon is impressive, but meteor swarm can make it pretty insignificant, especially considering that a learner's save DC will always be pretty low.  Also, a wizard will be throwing around meteor swarm and a few other high-level spells all day long, and even more with the assistance of magic items; a learner is limited to, at most, 15 + his Wisdom modifier talents/day, and can only know 21 + his Intelligence modifier.  Those numbers are pretty limited compared to what a wizard of comparable level can dish out.Yes, there are probably around a dozen talents that are scary, and perhaps it isn't what they can learn but when they can learn it.  A learner gaining the petrification ability of a cockatrice a few levels before a wizard can pretrify may seem overpowering, but the learner's saving throw DC is going to be so low that it's probably not much of an issue; since it's CR 3, the learner could learn it at first level, and since you need to be 6th to get into the class as a bard, you would get it at 7th; the DC would be 11 + his Charisma modifier, which for a bard at 6th would probably be +5 at most, so you're dealing with a DC 16 petrification effect.  At 7th, that isn't that impressive, especially when characters are possibly dealing with the threat of petrification at 3rd with a DC 13.  A wizard can get the same effect at 11th, with a DC 16 + his Intelligence mod, which is probably +6 at that point; the learner's would be 18, accounting for level and probably a boost in Charisma.  So the learner may get to petrification first - assuming he even encounters a cockatrice or similar creature! - while the wizard's is simply better in all respects.  It's not even a guarantee that a learner will get petrification, whereas if the wizard wants it, he gets it.</blockquote>

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