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<blockquote data-quote="covaithe" data-source="post: 4825069" data-attributes="member: 46559">Maybe we shouldn't have banned Vigor, then.&nbsp; I'm not going to stay up past my bedtime just to go and check, but I'm pretty sure I never got around to voting on that proposal.&nbsp; Ata, you of all people should know that I'm aware of what RoB can do in the hands of a capable optimizer; I've been on the receiving end of it.&nbsp; And I still think it's not game-breaking in normal, players-vs.-monsters play.&nbsp; L4W isn't an MMORPG.&nbsp; 4e has some superficial similarities to the kind of balance systems used in those games, but the differences are huge.&nbsp; For one thing, there's no PvP here.&nbsp; The speed of leveling is mostly determined by factors that have very little to do with combat.&nbsp; And, for my money, most of the fun comes from the story, in a way that MMORPGs can never match.&nbsp; Having a power that's better than other powers, even a lot better, just isn't the kind of problem for us that it is for World of Warcraft.&nbsp; Now, if we get a year down the road and find that, say, Oni's characters are making the game less fun for everyone because he's just romping through encounters with ease and DMs can't come up with an appropriate challenge for him, well, I'll be willing to reconsider.&nbsp; But I honestly don't think this will happen.&nbsp; It's really, really easy for DMs to adjust the difficulty of 4e encounters.&nbsp; It's easy for DMs to work around things like RoB.&nbsp; Better yet, it's easy for DMs to let players get away with the kind of spectacular splatter-kills that you can get with RoB, and still provide a fun and challenging encounter.&nbsp; Do you really think KenHood's origami rat encounter wouldn't be any fun if, say, Vaunea did 30 damage instead of 15 damage on one of her turns?&nbsp; I don't buy it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="covaithe, post: 4825069, member: 46559"] Maybe we shouldn't have banned Vigor, then. I'm not going to stay up past my bedtime just to go and check, but I'm pretty sure I never got around to voting on that proposal. Ata, you of all people should know that I'm aware of what RoB can do in the hands of a capable optimizer; I've been on the receiving end of it. And I still think it's not game-breaking in normal, players-vs.-monsters play. L4W isn't an MMORPG. 4e has some superficial similarities to the kind of balance systems used in those games, but the differences are huge. For one thing, there's no PvP here. The speed of leveling is mostly determined by factors that have very little to do with combat. And, for my money, most of the fun comes from the story, in a way that MMORPGs can never match. Having a power that's better than other powers, even a lot better, just isn't the kind of problem for us that it is for World of Warcraft. Now, if we get a year down the road and find that, say, Oni's characters are making the game less fun for everyone because he's just romping through encounters with ease and DMs can't come up with an appropriate challenge for him, well, I'll be willing to reconsider. But I honestly don't think this will happen. It's really, really easy for DMs to adjust the difficulty of 4e encounters. It's easy for DMs to work around things like RoB. Better yet, it's easy for DMs to [I]let players get away with[/I] the kind of spectacular splatter-kills that you can get with RoB, and [I]still[/I] provide a fun and challenging encounter. Do you really think KenHood's origami rat encounter wouldn't be any fun if, say, Vaunea did 30 damage instead of 15 damage on one of her turns? I don't buy it. [/QUOTE]

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