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<blockquote data-quote="ryryguy" data-source="post: 4864556" data-attributes="member: 64945">covaithe -I don't have an example of an overpowered build for you.&nbsp; In fact I don't think the original proposal would necessarily result in overpowered characters.&nbsp; I don't think it would be a terrible thing if the original proposal passed.But just a few points of clarification. First, these feats being &quot;multiclass&quot; doesn't prevent anyone with another multiclass feat being able to use a whip (or net or garrote...) in combat.&nbsp; Anyone can get just the regular weapon proficiency feat and apply it to whip.&nbsp; These weapon mastery feats give proficiency, plus something extra.&nbsp; And that's the fundamental objection that some have - if you lift the multiclass restriction, these feats become the default choice for martial characters.&nbsp; No martial character will take &quot;weapon proficiency (whip)&quot; if they have unrestricted access to &quot;weapon mastery (whip)&quot;.&nbsp; And then, the whip itself doesn't have just the properties of its (allegedly) superior weapon listing, when used it will in practice always get the extra from the feat as well.&nbsp; You've kind of powered up the whip itself through the back door.Second, my guess as to why WotC made these multiclass is indeed because of the power swap follow-on feats.&nbsp; But don't forget this is not only protection against overpowered builds.&nbsp; It's also protection against bad builds.&nbsp; I'm pretty sure WotC stated that explicitly about the original multiclass feats - they feared unrestricted power swapping would lead to people making very scattered choices resulting in ineffective characters.&nbsp; That's why I don't think removing the restriction will result in overpowered builds.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ryryguy, post: 4864556, member: 64945"] covaithe - I don't have an example of an overpowered build for you. In fact I don't think the original proposal would necessarily result in overpowered characters. I don't think it would be a terrible thing if the original proposal passed. But just a few points of clarification. First, these feats being "multiclass" doesn't prevent anyone with another multiclass feat being able to use a whip (or net or garrote...) in combat. Anyone can get just the regular weapon proficiency feat and apply it to whip. These weapon [I]mastery[/I] feats give proficiency, [I]plus[/I] something extra. And that's the fundamental objection that some have - if you lift the multiclass restriction, these feats become the default choice for martial characters. No martial character will take "weapon proficiency (whip)" if they have unrestricted access to "weapon mastery (whip)". And then, the whip itself doesn't have just the properties of its (allegedly) superior weapon listing, when used it will in practice always get the extra from the feat as well. You've kind of powered up the whip itself through the back door. Second, my guess as to why WotC made these multiclass is indeed because of the power swap follow-on feats. But don't forget this is not only protection against overpowered builds. It's also protection against [I]bad[/I] builds. I'm pretty sure WotC stated that explicitly about the original multiclass feats - they feared unrestricted power swapping would lead to people making very scattered choices resulting in ineffective characters. That's why I don't think removing the restriction will result in overpowered builds. [/QUOTE]

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