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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fredrik Svanberg" data-source="post: 4282286" data-attributes="member: 12996">Perhaps. I think I get his point.Yes, 4e characters are tougher from the get-go. So are the opponents. Whether a challenge is mundane or not isn't really a matter of level though, is it? I recall playing several 3.5e characters at level 1, facing undead, kobolds, goblins... are these threats mundane? They seem monstrous to me. What is mundane? The non-fantastic?I don't think 4e foes are "uberpowerful". They usually have more options than in previous editions, but so does the players. It balances out.I can't argue with that. 3.5e characters had very few options compared to 4e characters, that is true. I don't think it's necessary to remove options in order to create a challenge though, and I don't see how more options suddenly removed wits from the equation.I'm not saying that death or failure should be impossible. I'm just saying that if a character can die before it even gets started, why should we bother playing? Can't we just say that we all somehow managed to survive through our apprenticeships and became accomplished fighters, wizards, clerics or whatever. The game is about the people who survived to become heroes, not about the guy who flunked out of wizard school, never learned magic missile, and got killed by a rat because of it. That might be a cool character though, if you skip the dying part.I could go on about how nobody would want to hire adventurers who can't tie their own shoes, swing a sword or even cast cantrips. It would be a very irresponsible innkeeper who would ask a bunch of kids to clean out his rat-infested cellars. What cleric could demand that some snot-nosed children go and exorcise the animated skeletons from the old crypt? What fully grown miner would send poorly armed amateurs and novices to defeat the kobolds that have invaded his mine? I'm trying to point out how characters of the level suggested would look to the rest of the world - young, untrained, under-equipped, more dangerous to themselves than to their enemies.Of course, if there are mundane threats to handle, the mundane npcs can handle it themselves. Extraordinary people like the PCs are supposed to deal with the extraordinary. If the PCs are mundane too then there is no demand for their services.I would recommend roleplaying instead of rules to deal with the idea of inexperienced characters. Personally I think it's the wrong game for it entirely.</blockquote>

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