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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6284801" data-attributes="member: 6681948">A nice summary of several of the issues.  I think these all relate to a "meta-position" that a separate tier of play (whether Epic vs non-Epic, or Apprentice/Heroic/Paragon/Epic, or what have you should have more meaning than simply "More of what we did before with bigger numbers this time".  That is, there should be a fundamental shift that allows one to see, pretty much at a glance, that we have moved from Tier A to Tier B.  Precisely what might characterize each tier aside, that there should be a factor, or factors, which clearly distinguish that each tier is fundamentally different from the previous and subsequent tier.Interestingly (to me, at least), it seems many of those fundamental differences might reasonably be divorced from the levels of the characters.  27th level characters could continue adventures in the Heroic tier, with bigger numbers, and L6 characters might nonetheless have Epic adventures, depending on what factors we are using to define each tier. @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=4937" target="_blank">Celebrim</a> can likely provide better commentary than mine, but I think this is some of what he is driving at - if it's just a difference between +1 to hit and 1d8 damage against an opponent with AC 15 and 12 hp, and +21 to hit, 4d8 + 48 damage against an enemy with AC 35 and 224 hp, that's not enough of a difference - not even close - to justify calling it "a different tier".  I'm no 4e expert, but every level having a set level of damage done in various circumstances, DC of challenges, etc. seems to suggest that "more of the same with bigger numbers" is a primary driver.  Maybe a Heroic character should be seriously challenged by a burning building, and an Epic character should find this trivial, rather than just applying damage from a burning building appropriate to the level of the character.  "Well, yes, when you rescued your mentor from a burning building WAY back at 1st level, fire only did 1d6 damage, but you're now 21st level, so a burning building burns hotter and now does 3d8+60 damage. The fire and the building gain 20 levels right along with you."  And maybe it's OK, even desirable, for those Epic characters to sometimes be reminded of just how powerful they are by trivially resolving a problem that would have been (even was) challenging or insurmountable back in their Heroic days, intermingled with those Epic challenges that would have been unthinkable back in those days.  Not a challenge, and not the focus of play, but something that gives the feeling they truly are Epic now as compared to "back in the day".</blockquote>

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