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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6284902" data-attributes="member: 6696971">@<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6681948" target="_blank">N'raac</a>  and   @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=4937" target="_blank">Celebrim</a> , in light of your acceptance of the above 3 premises, could you take a look at the below and tell me what you think?1)  At the end of the Heroic Tier (level 10) of my home game, my players failed to save a humble settlement of hard-working, noble frontier folk from a horde that swept over their land (the fallout of a failed Skill Challenge).  The Fighter/Wizard player performed (and spent the requisite 100 g) a Binding "Magic Circle" Ritual with a high Arcana check.  This Ritual created a permanent, impermeable circle that would forevermore keep tomb-robbers and other grave-defilers away from the remains of the cemetery where all of these folks were buried.At level 27 (mid-late Epic Tier), this same group defeated the legendary sovereign of the greatest nation of their world;  a proud, Paladin King who had once united many disparate states, taking them as protectorates in a war against Abyssal proxies.  When this Paladin King eventually fell sway to dark methodology that made him ripe for possession, he lost his autonomy to the Abyssal Lord Juiblex.  The PCs defeated him but did not kill him.  The same Fighter/Wizard above performed a powerful (Adjure) Ritual (and spent the considerable cost to do so) in an attempt to bind the Demon Lord to his will and exorcise him from the Paladin, returning him to his noble status and restoring his place as (capable) ruler.  This Ritual is a scaled Skill Challenge.  The more successes, the greater the power you have over the entity.  The Fighter/Wizard speaks Juiblex's truename by way of a successful Religion check.  The Abyssal Lord  answers by making the walls, the ceiling, and the floor  begin to ooze and all manner of foul, Lovecraftian horrors, including  the holy sepulcher the Ritual was taking place in, began to rise against  the PCs.  The other 2 PCs at this point had an extraordinarily tough fight  on their hands while the Bladesinger attempted the RitualExorcising a Demon Lord is an extraordinary feat.  The Fighter/Wizard was not up to the task but he had won a minor, binding request from the Demon Lord Juiblex.  Knowing that the Paladin King was about to die from Juiblex's possession, he demanded an immediate audience into his personal sanctum for a fight to the death.  If Juiblex wins, he can use the PC's considerable power as a direct conduit to the mortal world and can slay the Paladin King at his discretion.  If he loses, he is vanquished forevermore.  He accepts.  The PC steps through the portal and a Level + 6 fight (beyond deadly) with the Ooze Lord, his minions and his, very alive, lair commences.  In the course of the fight, the PC is "slain", activating his Epic Destiny resurrection ability (for the 1st time), the spirit of an Ancient Wyrm, revealing to himself (and confirming suspicions from the campaigns outset due to various manifestations) that he is a reincarnated dragon who died heroically in the last age while  vanquishing the immediately preceding demonic scourge.  He is reborn  anew every age to fight this Abyssal Plague.  He slays the Abyssal Lord, freeing the Paladin but being lost in the Abyss simultaneously.2)  The Rogue/Ranger PC in my game was a dishonorably discharged naval commander.   A certain portion of the Heroic Tier of play was devoted to uncovering the conspiracy against him that led to this.  Through a long-term successful Complexity 5 Skill Challenge, he managed to get his crew back together to sail against the co-conspirators (another Skill Challenge), storm their stronghold, and claim the ledgers and documents that would clear his name.Bringing those back to the mainland, he was able to expose the conspirators and convince the people of the city to demand an Ordeal By Combat (another Skill Challenge).  He squared off against the primary conspirator in a duel and slew him, thus restoring his honors and his position if he wanted it.Throughout the course of the campaign, due to his inclinations, he would be fraught with things to despair over, specifically the idea of multicameralism.  He believed that the idea of checks and balances and separation of powers solely allowed the most corrupt to rule without expose themselves.  He favored strong, coherent, just rule by a singular leader who could be deposed of, if necessary, through force.  Thus the belief in the Legendary Sovereign (the Paladin King) and the deposing of him when his rule became insidious and then moved to overtly destructive.  This character and the Fighter/Wizard had a severe confrontation about whether to restore the king and attempt to exorcise whatever demonic force was corrupting him.  It wasn't truly settled when things finally went down as they did.By level 21, this character has seen enough of the twisted intrigues and conspiratorial secrets of the physical world that unjustly binds so many mortals.  He has risen in power enough to transcend to immortality and become a Darklord.  The Shadowfell has manifested a realm suited to his accomplishments and failures, producing a darkly twisted realm that for him is both frightening and comforting, reflecting all that he has done as a mortal and laying the foundation for what he would do as  an immortal.  This is the PC's "home base" as he can freely take them to and from this locale with an Epic Destiny providing Planar Portal and Shadow Walk (no consumables required).At the end of our current game, this character is making bargains with dark powers of the Shadowfell and gathering a shadowy network for reconnaissance (an Altnernate Advancement reward using his magic item budget) into the abyss (to locate the PC's lost companion) and an assault force (3 Swarm Companion Characters) to invade the Abyss.  This has been performed through a series of Skill Challenges, some of which involved vignettes whereby he would send his network of shadowy spies out into the Shadowfell and into the upper layers of the Abyss, and play out/resolve their conflicts/objectives.  One failed conflict brought immediate fallout upon the PC stuck in the Abyss.These are just a couple of personal anecdotes and are straight usage of the mechanics for the system (which doesn't have a stand-alone, explicit domain management system).  So.  Is that a "contrived/vapid numbers treadmill", a legitimately different (and thematically evolving and stake-escalating) game from low level to epic, or something else?  There is a an extreme amount of info that I've left out but I don't have the time, or urge, to type up a recap of the entirety of my campaign.  I'm hopeful that those two are sufficient for a glimpse.  I'm curious if you feel those anecdotes reinforce or are at odds with your accepted premises above.</blockquote>

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