Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6284960" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Let me clarify that, since I know people are going to jump on it in completely the wrong way.</p><p></p><p>A lot of this argument is over whether epic is something primarily associated with being high level. But what does it mean to be high level?</p><p></p><p>You might say, "Well, by high level I mean that when we are 1st level we were fighting kobolds and ogres, but now that we are 30th level we are fighting demon lords!"</p><p></p><p>But to me, that doesn't mean you are high level at all. If at first level we were facing monsters of level N+4, and we level up to 'high level' so that we can now face monsters of level N+4, we haven't really changed anything about the game. The game might be fun and worth it in and of itself, but we are still playing virtually the same game we were playing back when we started. The situation is analogous to something like Diablo III, where the reason you level up is to obtain gear of level N, so that you can obtain gear of level N+3, and so forth. It can be a fun experience in and of itself, but you are really on Manbearcat's leveling "treadmill". You may be having fun, but you aren't really going anywhere.</p><p></p><p>Note that this is an analogy. I'm not saying 4e <strong>is </strong>Diablo III; I'm just noting similarities between the two because they both utilize "fixed math". Differences will of course arise in areas where they are different, and I've already praised certain insights in 4e like 'epic destiny', although I personally prefer to handle that in different ways for the same reasons I prefer not to have the Leadership feat in 3e. Nonetheless, if I really were to run my game past 20th level, the epic destinies of 4e would inform my game more than the epic handbook of 3e.</p><p></p><p>So, that said, how do I define high level?</p><p></p><p>Well, I define high level thusly. When you are low level, almost everyone you meet treats you as being a peer or even an inferior. And when you are high level, by contrast almost everyone you meet is your inferior. When you are low level, almost everything involves a certain amount of challenge. When you are high level, almost nothing does. What matters is less what is above you, but what is behind you. Your relationship to the established setting is changing.</p><p></p><p>This can force on the game a change in perspective. The sort of challenges you set for yourself are no longer merely about your own success and survival. A game as simple as Diablo III can't handle this. It has to level up the world with you because its got no other way to adapt and its sole providable game play of interest is setting against you various challenges to your reflexes and game mastery. But a PnP game can adapt, and so has so many more possibilities.</p><p></p><p>A typical homebrew game probably adapts to some degree. But an adventure path game as written typically doesn't, and in my experience not every game even recognizes the possibility or is consciously adapting. Also, 3e to some extent and 4e to a great extent provided for scalable challenges to a degree that earlier editions didn't. Arguably in 1e you had to adapt or you'd run out of gameplay at some point depending on how generous the DM was with treasure. In 3e or 4e to option to not adapt is on the table. All I really am interested is showing a newish player that reads the thread that the options are there so that they can consciously choose how they want to play a particular game, rather than falling into a pattern out of habit rather than choice.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6284960, member: 4937"] Let me clarify that, since I know people are going to jump on it in completely the wrong way. A lot of this argument is over whether epic is something primarily associated with being high level. But what does it mean to be high level? You might say, "Well, by high level I mean that when we are 1st level we were fighting kobolds and ogres, but now that we are 30th level we are fighting demon lords!" But to me, that doesn't mean you are high level at all. If at first level we were facing monsters of level N+4, and we level up to 'high level' so that we can now face monsters of level N+4, we haven't really changed anything about the game. The game might be fun and worth it in and of itself, but we are still playing virtually the same game we were playing back when we started. The situation is analogous to something like Diablo III, where the reason you level up is to obtain gear of level N, so that you can obtain gear of level N+3, and so forth. It can be a fun experience in and of itself, but you are really on Manbearcat's leveling "treadmill". You may be having fun, but you aren't really going anywhere. Note that this is an analogy. I'm not saying 4e [B]is [/B]Diablo III; I'm just noting similarities between the two because they both utilize "fixed math". Differences will of course arise in areas where they are different, and I've already praised certain insights in 4e like 'epic destiny', although I personally prefer to handle that in different ways for the same reasons I prefer not to have the Leadership feat in 3e. Nonetheless, if I really were to run my game past 20th level, the epic destinies of 4e would inform my game more than the epic handbook of 3e. So, that said, how do I define high level? Well, I define high level thusly. When you are low level, almost everyone you meet treats you as being a peer or even an inferior. And when you are high level, by contrast almost everyone you meet is your inferior. When you are low level, almost everything involves a certain amount of challenge. When you are high level, almost nothing does. What matters is less what is above you, but what is behind you. Your relationship to the established setting is changing. This can force on the game a change in perspective. The sort of challenges you set for yourself are no longer merely about your own success and survival. A game as simple as Diablo III can't handle this. It has to level up the world with you because its got no other way to adapt and its sole providable game play of interest is setting against you various challenges to your reflexes and game mastery. But a PnP game can adapt, and so has so many more possibilities. A typical homebrew game probably adapts to some degree. But an adventure path game as written typically doesn't, and in my experience not every game even recognizes the possibility or is consciously adapting. Also, 3e to some extent and 4e to a great extent provided for scalable challenges to a degree that earlier editions didn't. Arguably in 1e you had to adapt or you'd run out of gameplay at some point depending on how generous the DM was with treasure. In 3e or 4e to option to not adapt is on the table. All I really am interested is showing a newish player that reads the thread that the options are there so that they can consciously choose how they want to play a particular game, rather than falling into a pattern out of habit rather than choice. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
Top