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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5022792" data-attributes="member: 5834">I didn't ask for a sorcerer or wizard. I would like a summoner designed around the wizard model or should I say arcane caster for BAB and saves. A summoner that enters battle is fairly useless.Sure, Use Magic Device and take all the scrolls and healing items from the cleric. Maybe your group runs in encounters where heal spells aren't spread like they are in ours. That is a matter of different play styles. But our DM usually designs main encounters where the fighter can die in a round or two and once he is low it requires focused healing by the cleric to keep the party alive. Maybe in most cases the cleric will be able to heal the eidolon, but that won't work real well in my group. Maybe our group runs against more difficult opposition than standard.This is probably more of a problem with our playstyle. We play in a magic somewhat light campaign. We're level 6 and our paladin doesn't have a magic sword yet. We have three +1 magic weapons spread throughout the group. So trying to equip an eidolon might no fly in my group. Not sure how other groups run.I'm not much concerned about up to 10th or so level. It's once the party starts fighting high end demons and creatures that can see through invisibility and have high ACs where the eidolon will start coming up short.Notice that monks received a BAB enhancement for their best attacks and for combat maneuvers. Otherwise they would be as unattractive as before at high level. Just like rogues still are and druids using wild shape. No one in my group likes playing druids or rogues because they are lacking compared to other classes against the types of encounters we face. From a DMs perspective it's very hard to balance an encounter so that it will be challenging for an paladin or fighter and still allow a druid or rogue to be very effective. They are far outshadowed by the fighter, ranger, and paladin in ability to hit. If you want a monster to last against a paladin, ranger, and fighter, you have to make it's armor class so high that a rogue or druid will have trouble hitting it with their standard BAB.Bards in my group are generally utility focused and rarely enter combat. My concerns may primarily be because of the type of encounters my DM designs and the lower number of magic items filtering in. Maybe in a standard campaign the summoner is fine. I think it will be weak in the campaigns I play in. Fighter, ranger, paladin, and monk will far outstrip it in damage. And if your primary power source is melee damage from a summoned outsider, that isn't going to be fun. Now rogue will at least have a stronger role in the group.I'll give this a test run to see how it works. But I was really hoping for a class designed more like a sorcerer save that summoned creatures constitute the progression path.Like it would have been great to have a summoner specialized in summoning elementals, one specialized in summoning devils, one specialized in summoning azatas, one specialized in summoning creatures from the edge of space and time, etc, etc. I think that would have been much cooler. Maybe that will be covered with Prcs or something.</blockquote>

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