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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2156733" data-attributes="member: 2011">And Psions have limits too. What's your point?Is your point that Wizards and Sorcerers are better because they do NOT have the following limitations???1) Psions have no zeroth level powers. Hence, every power costs at least one power point. While Sorcerers and Wizards can get away with several Mage Hands and Detect Magics and Lights every day, a Psion not only has to use a power point for Far Hand or Detect Psionics or My Light, but he also has to use up a precious first level power slot to be even able to manifest it.2) Psions have no illusions with defend themselves (e.g. Mirror Image, Invisibility, Invisibility Sphere, Greater Invisibility, Superior Invisibility) or with which to fake out opponents. Not all of the best magic is damage dealing.3) Psions have no necromancy spells.4) Cat Fall = stops 10 feet per PP. Feather Fall stops 60 feet per level.5) Burst = an additional 10 feet move as a swift action, if you want to do this every round, it costs a PP (and a swift action) every round. Expeditious Retreat = an additional 30 feet for one minute per level. You can replace Burst with Skate = an additional 15 feet for one minute per level that can be targeted on another character.6) Control Sound = 1 round per level. Ventriloquism = 1 minute per level.7) Cloud Mind = non-detectable for one minute per level to a single target if a Will save is failed. Invisibility = generally non-detectable if you are careful or unless an opponent has superior senses such as tremor sense for one minute per level for almost all targets without any saves required.8) Fly = 60 feet fly, third level spell, 1 minute per level. Fly = 60 feet fly, fourth level power, 1 minute per level, cannot be gained by most psions until 9th level if they take a feat, otherwise they must wait until 11th level to take Overland Flight. Ditto for all of the other  fly methods which are discipline specific and hence typically harder and later level to acquire (such as having an Astral Construct carry you, Ectoplasmic Form, or Metamorphosis).9) 80% of psionic powers have range Close or less.10) Magic is typically more prevalent than psionics. Psions cannot counterspell magic except by using Dispel Psionics and then only in a magic = psionics campaign. Counterspelling psionics by an arcane caster is much less useful than the inverse situation if psionics is relatively rare and in a magic = psionics campaign, the arcane caster can still do it with Dispel Magic. Hence, arcane casters can counterspell more often than psionic characters.11) In a psionics is rare campaign, psions have to either take their own psionic crafting feats, or they pretty much rarely get psionic items. Plus, it is even more rare to have multiple psionic PCs who can each take different psionic crafting feats to augment each other. Wizards and Sorcerers tend to have backup magic items like Wands and Staves and Scrolls whereas Psions tend to not have these items unless they make them themselves. And, Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free.12) Every other level starting at fourth, Sorcerers can swap out a single lower level less useful spell and replace it with a more useful one. Psions can do this too, but they have to take the power Psychic Reformation in order to replace powers. Plus, it costs 50 XP for each character level they go back and replace powers. Course, they gain the additional advantage that they can go back and replace skills and feats as well and they can do it for other characters as well, but at 50 XP per level back and a power slot, the free Sorcerer ability doesn't cost anything and is still enviable.13) A 9th level Sorcerer with an 18 Charisma can cast 11 Magic Missiles and 7 Empowered Magic Missiles which have virtually no defense (except Spell Resistance) and which all hit the opponents for 367.5 points of average damage in a day. A 9th level Psion with an 18 Intelligence can cast 10 Empowered Energy Rays for either Fire or Cold 7D6+7 damage where about 25% of his attacks fail to hit. If he gets super lucky and they all hit, he does an average of 455 points of damage. If only the average 75% hit (and this 75% pretty much assumes a equal or better Dex on the part of the Psion than on the part of his opponents and his opponents do not have other touch defenses like Deflection or Dodge bonuses, etc.), he does an average of 341.25 points of average damage in a day. The Psion could alternatively do 10 Maximized Energy Rays for either Fire or Cold 5D6+5 = 35 points of damage where if all 10 hit, he averages 350 points and if only 75% hit, he averages 262.5 points, but this is not as potent as Empowering them. Without the Empowering capability, the Sorcerer does 315 average points and the Psion does 405 points if they all hit, 303.75 if 75% hit, but using up higher level spell slots with non-augmented Magic Missile is not exactly using the Sorcerer to full advantage either.And of course, the Magic Missiles hit at a range of 190 feet whereas the Energy Ray has a range of 45 feet, and the Magic Missiles can be split across multiple opponents. It really doesn't sound like the Psion has any advantage here at all.So again, with about 80% of different opponent races being typically unable to defend against different energy type spells/powers anyway, what was your point about the Psions being able to shift energy around??? Is your point that they can do something that arcane spell casters cannot, similar to arcane spell casters can cast illusions and necromancy spells and psions cannot?Btw, I agree with you that Psions are better in some areas. But, my point is that they are worse in others, especially ranged combat, versatility, and having backup psionic items to help them, than arcane casters.</blockquote>

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