Publishers & Products that don't update section 15 of the OGL...

[trancejeremy]

For some reason, publishers don't want to follow the OGL completely. When you publish something under it, one of the provisions is that you update the last part of it with copyright information of open stuff you used, and your product. For instance,

"Product X, Copyright Publisher Y 2002, , (Optionally, Authors Z)"


They also have to update it for the SRD. (System Reference Document, Copyright 2000, WOTC)

Anyway, it's a big deal because a) if not done properly it is hard for other companies to figure out how they should update the section if they use material from the book and b) Wotc could make them recall their books or if they don't, sue them.

In an effort to get publishers to start doing it correctly, which is in the best interest of everyone, especially themselves (as a recall would be costly for them), I thought I'd list the products I have that have problems. (and it would be nice if people listed products with problems that I don't own)

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Green Ronin: Freeport: City of Adventure , Death in Freeport, Legions of Hell, Madness in Freeport, Hell in Freeport, Terror in Freeport. (Freeport: City of Adventure at least included the SRD, but they still aren't including their products)


Pinnacle: Deadlands 20, Dead From Above, Hell in the Hedgerows. (Oddly enough, they got it correctly in Blood on the Rhine. But they simply copy and pasted it from BOTR for Hell in the Hedgerows, and just botched it in DFA)

Chaosium: Dragonlords of Melnibone

Avalanche Press: Last Days of Constaninople, Twilight of Atlantis (forgot to mention the SRD), Jade & Steel (forgot the SRD)

Mongoose: Demonology: The Dark Road

Fiery Dragon: NeMoren's Vault (forgot the SRD)

 

[Morrus]

Some of those products are very old - I'm sure that any mistakes made early on are (generally) occuring much less now. I have noticed some suprising examples, though.

But then - does it matter? It's their problem, not yours. All you need to do is enjoy the product in question.

 

[2WS-Steve]

I think trancej is pointing out that if you're a publisher or fan working on a product that you want to release under the OGL, and you'd like to use some OGC from a particular source that didn't properly fill out section 15, then you're in something of a bind.

You have to use the sec. 15 from a product almost exactly as printed but if there's nothing there then how do you attribute your source material? If you fill the information in yourself then, technically, you've violated the OGL and are liable. In either case it feels like you might run into legal problems; and if you've got money riding it you'll probably figure that it's most safe to simply not use that content at all.

And, for the conspiracy minded, that'd make leaving out the section 15 update a pretty clever way of getting the benefits of the OGL without releasing any open gaming content yourself.

I don't think anyone on that list had the conspiracy in mind; DiF was all OGC after all so it seems pretty clear what Green Ronin's intentions have been. Still, the section 15 update is missing on an awful lot of products, some of which have been major releases by major publishers. It would be nice if they put up a 1 page or so pdf on their website with an updated OGL so that fans or thrid party publishers knew how to attribute.

 

[trancejeremy]

Well, most the products I have are old (since I'm broke and have to buy used stuff most of the time ). And I left out the companies who originally did it incorrectly, but fixed the problems in later product. But some companies are still screwing it up (it's sort of a running joke on the d20 OGL list)

For instance, Green Ronin - their Freeport book just came out this month. Or Dead from Above from Pinnacle. That's 2-3 months old, and is a regression from them doing it correctly.

Sure, you might say it's their business, but it's also the business of anyone that wants to use their open content. And that's more than you'd think.

WOTC is moving towards a policy of no fan pages, only d20/OGL web pages. They're moving quietly, but they are moving there. So it could affect everyone with a d20 fan page. And it affects people with d20 fan pages, since they do have to use the OGL if they want to use OGL content. Like say adapting classes from Fading Suns d20 to Dragonstar d20.

And then there are people who write character generators or software. Or are publishing stuff as PDFs. Or are entering adventure contests. They all need the correct info to use open material. If a company isn't updating their products correctly, the user has to guess. And that can cause legal trouble.

Anyway, I don't think it's a conspiracy. I mean, is any RPG company actually mean or cut-throat? Other than Palladium, no. Even Hasbro is extremely nice for the most part. I think people are just a bit careless or lazy, and because WOTC/Hasbro has never really said much (largely because they are too busy, I imagine, especially now after all the layoffs).

 

[Nikchick]

TranceJeremy, I really feel like you've been grinding an axe on GR lately.

I'm not going to make any excuses for not getting our section 15 stuff right in some of our books, but I will say that now that there are actually two full-time employees able to devote their full attention to running the business and going over the products with a fine-tooth comb, you're going to see far fewer oversights like the ones you mention in our products.

It would be completely unprofessional of me to comment on some of the truly outrageous violations of the OGL that I've seen in other products, but I assure you that I have seen much more egregious problems than the things you've called out in this thread.

Nicole

 

[Orcus]

I agree with tj-

The section 15 screw ups seem to be the most common mistake that I still see people making. Part of that is possibly my fault. I did it wrong in the Creature Collection and I know a lot of people have looked to that book to see how we did it. We referenced the SRD, but didnt do a copyright line for CC in Section 15. So if I contributed to the problem, sorry! But that was back when they were changing the draft of the license on us all the time. There is no (well, almost no) excuse for doing it wrong now.

Clark

 

[Orcus]

I can see a publisher cutting and pasting an old license section into a new book that has an old mistake in it (which is my guess about Freeport, GR certainly knows what they are doing). I know the legal part is the last part I attend to when doing a product. It is often done in a rush. I may take a bit of interest in it since I am a lawyer but I can tell you that you need a person to oversee that stuff. Your writers dont do the legal section. Plus, d20/OGL compliance is an evolving beast and WotC--though they have been very cool to date about violations--they have NOT been very up front about providing examples of how to do it right.

Clark

 

[Blacksad]

In an effort to get publishers to start doing it correctly, which is in the best interest of everyone, especially themselves (as a recall would be costly for them), I thought I'd list the products I have that have problems. (and it would be nice if people listed products with problems that I don't own)

AEG: Rokugan, Creatures of Rokugan, Magic of Rokugan

 

[Nellisir]

Magic of Rokugan, at least, actually has a Section 15 copyright line. It's just not under Section 15. It's in the paragraph under the Goodie License, in the opposite column. Kinda right, but kinda wrong.

This is something I notice alot. I check pretty much every book I buy (and I buy new stuff), and this seems to be right up there on the list of most frequent mistakes. I don't have time or interest to go through my shelf right now, but I do think it's an issue that publishers should be aware of. People do notice, and it contributes to an overall perception of the company's dedication to "getting it right".

Cheers
Nell.

who, glancing through a few books, notices Green Ronin got Armies of the Abyss and Jade Dragon, Hungry Ghosts correct, and AEG has gotten Dungeons, Undead, Evil, and Monsters wrong.

 

[Nikchick]

I can see a publisher cutting and pasting an old license section into a new book that has an old mistake in it (which is my guess about Freeport, GR certainly knows what they are doing).

You guessed it.

Not an excuse, just an explanation. Instituting new processes (and having a full-time pair of eyes looking out for such things) will keep that from happening again.

Funny thing about Freeport is that even though it's "new" to market, we were done working on that book several months ago. In-house we've finished five other books completely, and are into the sixth, improving the process for each one.

Nicole