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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lackhand" data-source="post: 4386989" data-attributes="member: 36160">Full, flame-retardant disclosure: I'm a complete and utter f4nboy, but a little disappointed in the actual books-as-products, as opposed to the design of the game.I've heard the complaints before; lo, I've made them myself. 4e is too combat-heavy. It's killing roleplaying (forego, I beg of you, the questions of whether that's the duty of the ruleset; accept the charge as a given). It doesn't prevent as many distinct points of customization as 3X. So on.We've also heard that skill challenges are broken, in that the math involved in them is too punitive and just punishes players.I think I have a solution! It's going to take some work from all of us, but it will fix two problems at once, and additionally, add a lot to the game.Here's the proposal: For each daily power in the game, concoct a flimsy excuse for giving it an out-of-combat use also; this will usually but not always involve interacting with the rules for skill challenges, which players currently can interact with only in the most rudimentary (trained/untrained?) ways.To do this fairly, we need to figure out a taxonomy of skill challenges which various classes should be good at. The temptation is, as ever, to let the arcane classes use the fact that it's magic to just win at everything forever; that should be avoided, as they already have quite useful utility spells to fill these niches.I've come up with some basic mappings for the 1st level abilities (Such as the Brute Strike allowing a fighter who discharges it during a skill challenge to gain a +4 bonus to raw strength checks to heft, push, pull, or otherwise manhandle large objects for 1 round), which I'll post when I get home.Before I do though, one of the other goals I'd like to set for this thread is to discuss the types of skill challenges that there are. Of course these won't be set categories, just useful shorthands; but to avoid changing the balances of the classes too much, it'd be nice to assure something like adequate coverage.Sure, it'll end up with a situation like "Welp, time to sit on my thumbs whilst the Decker does his stuff", but at least the Decker has stuff to do <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />So, my first stab at categories was by type (note that this is off the top of my head; my books are at home and I haven't internalized them yet, so it's fully likely that I'm duplicating effort actually in the core books):Traps. These require Perception or Nature or Dungeoneering to detect and usually Thievery or bashing-them-apart to defeat, or just go around. Knowledge skills might be useful. Interpersonal skills are useless. Any of the defenses might be helpful in avoiding the bad stuff.Also, I think (just to lob a grenade out here) that this edition should use initiative checks to avoid pit traps, rather than have the pit trap attack your reflex. Hah!Social Combat. Usually with a set goal in mind, the "defensive" abilities are Insight and Will saves, and the offensive ones Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. Knowledge skills might be useful here, too; Nobility or Streetwise can tell you what you're dealing with. Athletics and Acrobatics are extremely unlikely to impress.Terrain. Might be small scale or large scale. If small scale, it's probably all about Athletics or Acrobatics; Perception or Nature might again play a role if it's a "trappy" terrain. Knowledges probably won't help much, but prepare to be surprised; Endurance might, especially if large scale. Interpersonals, again, won't be too helpful.Lore. All about the knowledges, when you need a specific clue or answer to a riddle. Might also include crime scene investigation. Interpersonal can help with sages. Nonapplicable lores will be less useful, and athletics and acrobatics are probably out on their ears again.Thoughts?</blockquote>

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