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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Yele" data-source="post: 1063125" data-attributes="member: 7333">"...D20M's characters' saves progress at a pace comparable with D&D characters..."That's true on the surface, but it ignores two key elements: ability score progression and the relative progression of good saves/bad saves.Ability Score Progression: D&D characters have far better saves than their Modern counterparts because their ability scores are much better, thanks to magic. Even the relatively tame PCs that WotC uses to test things (Tordek, Mialee, Lidda, and Jozan) have 30s in their best stats and 25+ in other relevant ones. And they've all got +5 cloaks of resistance or the equivalent by high levels. d20 Modern characters--at least the ones published thus far as examples--don't have equivalent equipment, even in magic-rich settings like Urban Arcana. Given the sky-high wealth numbers attached to the magic items printed thus far, I'm not surprised.Good Saves/Bad Saves: Every D&D base class has at least one good save. Four of the eleven classes have two good saves, and the monk has three good saves. (And I'd argue that the paladin's divine grace is tantamount to two or three good saves.) So it's fair to say that half the classes get two good saves.But in d20 Modern, _none_ of the base classes have good saves. Four of the six classes have one average/two bad saves. Two of the six have two average/one bad saves. The advanced classes aren't much better. Five have two average/one bad, four have one good/two bad, and three have one good/one average/one bad.If you compare actual characters between the two games, it's pretty close at low levels, but the gap at higher levels is just huge. There's no realistic build for a d20 Modern 15th-level martial artist that matches Ember the monk's +15/+19/+17 (taken from the back of Enemies and Allies). There's no Modern 15th-level soldier who matches Alhandra's +17/+10/+14. And WotC builds their characters on a puny 25-point buy.I don't post much, but the paucity of good saves in d20 Modern really bugs me. It's good for the gritty stuff, don't get me wrong. But for the wahoo stuff--and for players used to D&D--it's an ugly, unpleasant surprise.-yele, who really grooves on Pulp Heroes, even though Poly seems to insist on publishing stuff he already did for his own game a few months ago.</blockquote>

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