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Putting The Awe Back In Magic
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7998423" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Okay, let us say Fireball had a secondary effect. "Can break five feet of stone"</p><p></p><p>What happens if there is a layer of metal over the stone? What if the pillar is concrete poured around a foot wide mithril beam? What about wood? What about enchantments? What about if it is in a different plane of existance, like the Nine Hells where it is constantly hot?</p><p></p><p>Now we are adjudicating again. You can't add enough rules language to an ability to make it so you never have to adjudicate. At least sticking with hp there are some rules and a general guideline in the DMG that you can refer to. These "secondary effects" you are talking about would be wholly outside the other rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then I don't get the problem, if you do it all the time anyways, why is this example a step too far?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Plenty of spells have attack rolls, so those can critically fumble. And where a fighter might have 4 attacks, the wizard has one, and they used that resource and can't get it back, while the fighter can just make four more attacks next turn. </p><p></p><p>And, you only get half damage on saves for certain spells, other spells you don't. For example, there is no 'half effect' for Hold Person.</p><p></p><p>So, you are talking about selection of spells, not all spells. Sure, lightning bolt will always do some damage, but banishment is all or nothingm it either works or it doesn't. And even after it works you don't know if you are going to get the full concentration time out of it or not. That is a good degree of uncertainty. So how would a change to make banishment, hold person, slow, hypnotic pattern, ect more unreliable and more dangerous even work? These are all or nothing spells, the player rolls no dice and can take no actions to make them more likely to succeed. Do we also have them deal Xd6 damage and then do what? Permanent hold person? Concentration for an hour? Double the number of targets? How do we make an excellent spell that is only somewhat reliable less reliable, more dangerous and somehow even more powerful?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, that isn't coming across clearly. I don't think you could make a simple and light system to cover what it seems to be you are talking about. At least, no more than you can already do with the tools you have. I have players roll spellcasting checks sometimes, casting mod + prof, and make it a skill check. The skill system gives a light framework to work within, so if they want to do something crazy, that is my default, and that does fall within the rules provided even, because it is simply an ability check with prof based on if they should be proficient in what they are doing or not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7998423, member: 6801228"] Okay, let us say Fireball had a secondary effect. "Can break five feet of stone" What happens if there is a layer of metal over the stone? What if the pillar is concrete poured around a foot wide mithril beam? What about wood? What about enchantments? What about if it is in a different plane of existance, like the Nine Hells where it is constantly hot? Now we are adjudicating again. You can't add enough rules language to an ability to make it so you never have to adjudicate. At least sticking with hp there are some rules and a general guideline in the DMG that you can refer to. These "secondary effects" you are talking about would be wholly outside the other rules. Then I don't get the problem, if you do it all the time anyways, why is this example a step too far? Plenty of spells have attack rolls, so those can critically fumble. And where a fighter might have 4 attacks, the wizard has one, and they used that resource and can't get it back, while the fighter can just make four more attacks next turn. And, you only get half damage on saves for certain spells, other spells you don't. For example, there is no 'half effect' for Hold Person. So, you are talking about selection of spells, not all spells. Sure, lightning bolt will always do some damage, but banishment is all or nothingm it either works or it doesn't. And even after it works you don't know if you are going to get the full concentration time out of it or not. That is a good degree of uncertainty. So how would a change to make banishment, hold person, slow, hypnotic pattern, ect more unreliable and more dangerous even work? These are all or nothing spells, the player rolls no dice and can take no actions to make them more likely to succeed. Do we also have them deal Xd6 damage and then do what? Permanent hold person? Concentration for an hour? Double the number of targets? How do we make an excellent spell that is only somewhat reliable less reliable, more dangerous and somehow even more powerful? Well, that isn't coming across clearly. I don't think you could make a simple and light system to cover what it seems to be you are talking about. At least, no more than you can already do with the tools you have. I have players roll spellcasting checks sometimes, casting mod + prof, and make it a skill check. The skill system gives a light framework to work within, so if they want to do something crazy, that is my default, and that does fall within the rules provided even, because it is simply an ability check with prof based on if they should be proficient in what they are doing or not. [/QUOTE]
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