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Putting The Awe Back In Magic
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<blockquote data-quote="Fenris-77" data-source="post: 7998734" data-attributes="member: 6993955"><p>This thread has gotten a little messy, yeah. There are a lot of ideas floating around, and a post in reply to one person sometimes indexes other posts and ideas. That is certainly the case for me here. <em>Mea culpa</em> if things have gotten a little muddled. Spell effect on the environment is one part, and probably not the largest part, of what I'm really talking about I suppose. Trying to keep the discussion to property damage has made it difficult to stay on message.</p><p></p><p>My general thrust goes back to what produces awe in the players, not really the narrow example of property damage. Awe comes, at least in part from the unexpected, and in part from the rush of succeeding when there was a real chance of failure. At least that's the definition I'm rolling with here. I don't think there's a lot of juice in arguing over the definition so long as we're specific about what we mean. I feel like a significant element of risk, pared with a significant reward, is a key element of building dramatic tension. The magic system doesn't really do that though. It works just fine, it's not broken or anything, but it's also not dramatic and exciting the way I'd like it be. Note the personal qualifiers.</p><p></p><p> I wasn;t really suggesting that the two were directly linked like that. As I said, the property damage idea, and some flex and risk in the casting system is one way to approach things. Additional risk generally indexes additional reward. Just adding a whole bunch of additional options and effects to the magic system as is represents a straight buff to system that is already really powerful at higher levels. I'd prefer to balance things out more. That's my approach though, I'm sure some people would be quite happy to just add it in and move on.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Any roadmap is a good roadmap. What your approach doesn't do though, is give the <em>players</em> a roadmap. All the decision making is still on you. My light mechanics suggestion was really just to front load that decision making, get some examples in place that I'm happy with, and give those to the players so that their expectations start off in line with mine and I end up doing less off the cuff improv, which I'm already doing a ton off (DMing right?). It gives the players some handholds they can plan from and some idea how I'll rule on an idea. We're both doing the same work though, just organizing ourselves differently.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Spells are a finite resource, and so the expected return on investment should be higher. That's why for cantrips I'd usually suggest that they are on par with a sword blow in terms of effect. With a spell I'd be willing to grant a little more latitude. It's not an additive idea either. three chops from a sword isn't the same as a fireball, regardless of damage totals. That kind of damage comparison is why I try to keep this sort of thing mostly outside the damage system when I can. That 'sword chop' is already an more of an abstraction as part of the combat rules than spells are, so I try avoid comparing the two directly.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fenris-77, post: 7998734, member: 6993955"] This thread has gotten a little messy, yeah. There are a lot of ideas floating around, and a post in reply to one person sometimes indexes other posts and ideas. That is certainly the case for me here. [I]Mea culpa[/I] if things have gotten a little muddled. Spell effect on the environment is one part, and probably not the largest part, of what I'm really talking about I suppose. Trying to keep the discussion to property damage has made it difficult to stay on message. My general thrust goes back to what produces awe in the players, not really the narrow example of property damage. Awe comes, at least in part from the unexpected, and in part from the rush of succeeding when there was a real chance of failure. At least that's the definition I'm rolling with here. I don't think there's a lot of juice in arguing over the definition so long as we're specific about what we mean. I feel like a significant element of risk, pared with a significant reward, is a key element of building dramatic tension. The magic system doesn't really do that though. It works just fine, it's not broken or anything, but it's also not dramatic and exciting the way I'd like it be. Note the personal qualifiers. I wasn;t really suggesting that the two were directly linked like that. As I said, the property damage idea, and some flex and risk in the casting system is one way to approach things. Additional risk generally indexes additional reward. Just adding a whole bunch of additional options and effects to the magic system as is represents a straight buff to system that is already really powerful at higher levels. I'd prefer to balance things out more. That's my approach though, I'm sure some people would be quite happy to just add it in and move on. Any roadmap is a good roadmap. What your approach doesn't do though, is give the [I]players[/I] a roadmap. All the decision making is still on you. My light mechanics suggestion was really just to front load that decision making, get some examples in place that I'm happy with, and give those to the players so that their expectations start off in line with mine and I end up doing less off the cuff improv, which I'm already doing a ton off (DMing right?). It gives the players some handholds they can plan from and some idea how I'll rule on an idea. We're both doing the same work though, just organizing ourselves differently. Spells are a finite resource, and so the expected return on investment should be higher. That's why for cantrips I'd usually suggest that they are on par with a sword blow in terms of effect. With a spell I'd be willing to grant a little more latitude. It's not an additive idea either. three chops from a sword isn't the same as a fireball, regardless of damage totals. That kind of damage comparison is why I try to keep this sort of thing mostly outside the damage system when I can. That 'sword chop' is already an more of an abstraction as part of the combat rules than spells are, so I try avoid comparing the two directly. [/QUOTE]
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