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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DonTadow" data-source="post: 4046753" data-attributes="member: 22622">I'll go out and throw the whole "tactics" argument. Tactical objectives, are in essence, puzzles.  The argument that "my character figures it out" is akin to saying "my millitary warlord figures out the right way to win the battle.  TadaAt that point we have wrapped up dungeons and dragons into a 20 minute session 5 or 6  rolls to determine the result and not the process.  Just like combat is the process of fighting tactics, puzzles are the process of mental tactics.  I think there are just a lot of DMs who run puzzles wrong and that gives them a bad taste on many players. Puzzles just showing up with no explanation to the dungeon is like a creature showing up with no real reasoning.  Sensible puzzles are usually there as a test or there to remind minions of things.  I think DMs should also give players various different rolls and provide clues for solving certain puzzles.  I've done spot checks to realize certain buttons were pushed first, intelligence/logic checks to discern a pattern and listen checks to hear clicking.  But just like combats, there are certain players whom just won't like puzzles.  That's part of the reasoning why you want to add other elements to it. Various checks I've previously said or you can throw in a combat that escalates as the time goes away.There was a really crazy thread 2 years ago before the big crash when someone posted a save or die puzzles. That is what not to do.  It's cool to have a puzzle apart be deadly or unpassable but pcs like their characters to die in combat.</blockquote>

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