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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6206205" data-attributes="member: 95493">No, you didn't raise dodging, I did.There is nothing anyone can do as long as they are within 5 feet of this guy to avoid taking his STR in damage. You gave me a list of places they could be, but not things they could DO to avoid it. They could be outside his range, on the moon, behind a wall, etc. but that isn't the circumstance of "five feet away" that I originally gave. And I'll reply to what you wrote when you reply to what I wrote. If there is a specific passage you want me to respond to and re-analyze, I'll be happy to - please point it out to me. I replied to the "use magic" bit already.Specifically, by the way, what I'm looking for is a situation (similar to dodging [ie. using ones AC]) that can be used IN MELEE with the fighter to last more than a single round - as a commoner. Because, as I also said, even minions in 4e had to be hit once. Now Salamandyr had some ideas for how to start to fix this, I'm curious what your solution is as it is currently written.1. I wasn't upset.2. You did focus on the being blind aspect quite a lot.3. I already said (last time I replied to you) that I was stacking on disadvantages which should EACH matter. You addressed NONE of those, except to say "use magic."4. My analogy was a composite of deficiencies which should affect the fighter in question - but failed to. It was not "flawed" or at least you have not shown it to be flawed. Your previous post basically amounted to saying "look at all these holes in this cheese" and me saying "it's swiss cheese, always looks that way" and your reply now seems to be "aha, so you are angry that I pointed out the holes." No I'm merely pointing out that you didn't explain why there are holes, nor patch them up.5. You fixated on the blind aspect, and tried to prove that other bad things would happen because he is blind. That had nothing to do with the ability or example given, as being blind does not affect him being able to mow down a villager in melee. If you had addressed that once, instead of worrying about how he doesn't walk into walls on his way into town, then I would have probably dropped the "yeah, he's blind, and..?" comment immediately.I don't have a problem with abilities that let him kill one or two villagers. I have a problem with the ability that let's him do it without an attack roll. I have a problem with him being able to slaughter 95% of all humanoids WITHOUT A ROLL, every attack all day long. This is the worst kind of "his limits are his HP" stuff that pemerton always talks about. My example was an overinflated one, having a blind fighter enter town and start a rampage, but it is still accurate with or without him being blind. He gets himself killed, eventually, has NOTHING to do with the ability in question. He gets himself killed eventually should apply to every character in the game, regardless of level or ability. It does not prove nor disprove how valid a specific ability is - which is what we are discussing - or rather what I am discussing but you are sidestepping.Example? Okay. Fighter goes into a bar. In that bar there are.. 20 villagers (level 1/0 basic level Joes just having a good time). The fighter pulls out his two handed weapon (though he could be snapping his fingers - as his strength bonus does all the work) and proceeds to slaughter everyone in the bar with zero effort. He does this without needing to roll a single attack roll. He does this by being with melee with them for a single "attack". He does this as long as he is in melee with them no matter how fast they are (DEX score, ability to dodge), how much armor they are wearing (increasing their AC), he does this without needing to make a SINGLE attack roll.Another example: A rogue goes into a bar. In the bar is the same mix of people. He then pulls out his poisoned daggers and starts stabbing everyone. He has to roll against AC. Their saves vs. poison are taken into effect. Their DR realistically makes sense. They can still wear good armor and avoid his attacks, same goes for dodging well. Same for parrying and blocking with shields (forgot those for the fighter). He might still kill everyone but he has to at least roll a d20 once per person he kills, regardless of his dexterity. He has to at least hit the people, even if his chances of missing (and dealing zero damage) are 1 in 20.Last example: The wizard goes into a bar. In the bar is the same mix of people. He throws a fireball. Assuming for the moment that the fireball goes through, isn't blocked or deflected before it arrives exactly where he wanted. He hits and kills probably most of the people in the bar with a giant explosion of fire damage. However, those who were able to take cover, hide behind tables, the bar, behind corners or out of the range of the attack are still saved. The wizard can also only do this once per day (per slot prepared). After which the survivors come and mop him up.There are differences I'll grant, but the fighter has snowflake status that none of the others do. He doesn't need to roll. He doesn't need to worry what the other people can do, what they are wearing, where they are. He can effectively battle blind, or snap his fingers (as his STR is doing the work) and kill people. He can snap his fingers because his weapon is irrelevant - he kills the 3 hp people with a 0 roll on his weapon's damage dice. He breaks the game, in character and out of character, in ways that others can't. There is no defense against the fighter - enter melee and you are dead. 100 out of 100 times he kills you - first round, without a weapon, naked, blindfolded. This is the same level of evasion (in 3e) bad, except it is worse because it is offense and can be done ALL day. And against 95% of all villagers everywhere. Without defense. There isn't even the 1 in 20 that he misses.I have a problem with that. And you can't fatigue me to death.</blockquote>

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