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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 6206432" data-attributes="member: 2525">First, lets clear something up.  This whole thing started with you complaining that nothing in the game counters this tactic.  You then moved the ball to try and make it about "dodging".  But who cares how you avoid the damage, as long as you avoid the damage? The goal you were seeking is "stopping this from working, with any ability in the game".  And the answer is "lots of things can do it".  You cannot reduce it down to just dodging for your own convenience - that ignores the topic and just presents an entirely meaningless reduction so you can pretend to hit the "i win" button.  Our goal here is to explore whether the auto damage can be prevented by things in the game.  And I am saying it can be.Second, I am not sure why you thought it was an honest thing to do, to cut most of the list of things I named and then claim I only listed a few, but I'm not a fool Tovec.  Here is the list I have given you so far, most of which you ignored not once, but sometimes twice:1) Abilities like cunning action (which I've repeated twice, and went into some depth on, and WHICH IS NOT MAGIC and which is for this very situation - it's the Evasion replacement, mostly);2) flight3) burrowing 4) swimming5) pit traps6) mirror image7) other illusion spells like illusionary wall8) anything that denies the fighter the ability to target you, like full cover9) ready an action to move my speed if the fighter stands next to me and tries to hit me10) ready an action to create a wall of stone between us if the fighter stands next to me and tries to hit meThat's just the things I've named so far, and at least half the list is non-magic in nature.All of them do.  The "issue" is being auto-damaged by a miss.  It is addressed by disallowing the fighter from targeting you with a melee attack, in a variety of ways, because use of the ability requires targeting you.Well of course they didn't include an ability that JUST applies to avoiding this one sub-classes on sub-ability! Don't be silly Tovec, any answer is going to be more general than that.  Evasion was never just for one sub-classes sub-ability either! The issue is "how do you avoid taking this auto-damage" ad all of these are ways in the game to do so.  There is no rule that it has to be something tailored just for this ability.I don't know why you think "magic doesn't count".  But magic counts.  You claimed things couldn't avoid the damage - many things avoid the damage.  Some are magic, some are not.  Why is it relevant that it be mundane? Wait wait wait...so now you're saying it's not that there is no ability in the game to avoid the damage, but just that your typical villager must do it - even though your counter-example was Evasion from 3e which villagers didn't have? Tovec, NO VILLAGER, IN ANY GAME, IS GOING TO SURVIVE.  Come on, you're being really disingenuously reductionist here to avoid dealing with this issue head-on.  There are abilities in this game which effectively deal with the ability in question.  But if any character wants to just kill a peasant, they will be able to kill a peasant.  The context is the real challenges an adventurer might face - and those challenges have plenty of options like those I named.  THAT is being genuine about this issue.Did you not read the list, ignore the list, or are you fibbing? That ten point list is all things I mentioned in prior posts to you in this thread.Wow, OK, now who is not paying attention.  Hey Tovec, YOU GAVE THOSE ANSWERS IN THE VERY POST YOU SAID THIS IN! Look up! You what, wanted me to read your mind, or predict you would answer him that way? I get it, you have a lot to reply to.  But, this is a pretty big error for you to be making.  Regardless, NOW I've read them, because you just gave them, and you do not address this issue.  You must roll an attack to use the ability.  Period.  And the ability to roll an attack is contingent on a number of things, one of which is the ability to target something.  If you can deny the ability to target, you deny the use of this ability.  This is all relevant. So stop saying you can do it without even making an attack roll - you MUST make an attack roll to use the ability.Again, you made that response contemporaneous with this reply I am replying to right now.  You're coming off...poorly...by not realizing that and then repeating it again.He kills ONE.  Same number he'd kill without the ability.  That's it.  It has no impact.  The villager has a low AC and a rotten Dex.  The fighter has a high attack bonus, and high damage bonus, and will be acting first in your scenario.  One villager dies, and then the fighter dies, regardless of the ability.If it's meaningless for your example, then I am waiting to hear how it impacts balance appreciably at all.  I mean, if it's meaningless for such an unrealistic example like a villager, it's REALLY meaningless for someone with a counter-ability like cunning action.He auto-kills villagers with three hit points or less.  He's going to do that anyway Tovec.  Yes, it's no big deal.  He's going to auto-kill a single peasant if he wants to.  As spelled out above, the DM even has rules to simply declare that he kills the villager with no roll, even without this ability.Everyone is going to be able to kill a villager if they want to. Everyone.The wizard does not need to hit anything.  He just waves his hand and aims vaguely near the center, and they all die.  It's a fireball.  The entire tavern just went up in flames, they all took more fire damage than they have in hit points, they're all dead.They're peasants Tovec.He does it once per turn (that's all he is allowed), and if the villagers get a turn, he cannot do it at all because he just got tackled by as many of those 20 villagers as can grapple him or aid-another on grappling him.  Once he's held, he can no longer target anything with an attack.Look again.  I addressed it directly.  Who cares? They ALL will be able to kill a villager if they want to.  The Rogue has advantage and sneak attack, and with assassinate will auto-crit for max damage.  And he can do it AT RANGE with a very high attack bonus, and then move and hide after.  So if he happened to roll a 1, he can just do it again on round 2 because the villagers spend the next round looking for him.  The Wizard magic missiles (auto hit, auto kill the villager). The Cleric with War Priest sub-class with get a PLUS 10 on his attack role and WILL ATTACK TWICE.  Heck he can even move between those two attacks and kill two villagers! They all will kill at least one villager Tovec.</blockquote>

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