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<blockquote data-quote="Iosue" data-source="post: 6206456" data-attributes="member: 6680772">All of this cleanly misses the point.&nbsp; My point is not &quot;but saves allow half damage&quot;, my point is you can be successful in your &quot;saving throw&quot; and still not be &quot;saved&quot;.&nbsp; Many critics of &quot;damage on a miss&quot;, and most specifically your very response above run right to the literal meaning of the words.&nbsp; &quot;But 'miss'!&quot;&nbsp; I'm saying you can make saving throws that don't save you, so it's no stretch for misses that do damage.No, because it's the elephant in the room.&nbsp; If someone says, like Morrus did earlier in the thread, &quot;Okay, I can see how damage on a miss is like half-damage on saved AoEs, but personally it just doesn't feel right to me&quot;, then fine.&nbsp; Subjective reaction.&nbsp; But when people try to prove that its an objectively silly idea, and whip out ad hominems like &quot;special snowflake&quot;, then they have to show why half-damage on AoE saves are okay, but STR mod damage on a miss are not.&nbsp; They have to show why literal semantic meaning is so important for &quot;hit&quot; and &quot;miss&quot;, but not important for &quot;save&quot;.&nbsp; But they can't.&nbsp; It's the same principle at work: simple terms generalized to abstract representations of combat.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Iosue, post: 6206456, member: 6680772"] All of this cleanly misses the point. My point is not "but saves allow half damage", my point is you can be successful in your "saving throw" and still not be "saved". Many critics of "damage on a miss", and most specifically your very response above run right to the literal meaning of the words. "But 'miss'!" I'm saying you can make saving throws that don't save you, so it's no stretch for misses that do damage. No, because it's the elephant in the room. If someone says, like Morrus did earlier in the thread, "Okay, I can see how damage on a miss is like half-damage on saved AoEs, but personally it just doesn't feel right to me", then fine. Subjective reaction. But when people try to prove that its an objectively silly idea, and whip out ad hominems like "special snowflake", then they have to show why half-damage on AoE saves are okay, but STR mod damage on a miss are not. They have to show why literal semantic meaning is so important for "hit" and "miss", but not important for "save". But they can't. It's the same principle at work: simple terms generalized to abstract representations of combat. [/QUOTE]

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