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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6130462" data-attributes="member: 7006">Yes, they are optional, but at the same time... if you are going to have several systems in place for character generation and they all create unique situations for certain classes, but are redundant systems for others... I think that is not very good design.Here was the point I made in the other thread...The cleric's subclasses are not "kits" or "jobs" or assign a background story.  Instead... the point of the cleric class is that they worship a god, and thus the subclasses are the different gods they worship.  Those gods have nothing to do with the cleric's "job" or "story" in the world.  The cleric might be a cloistered cleric and remain in the temple... he might be a missionary who goes out trying to exemplify what his deity stands for... he might be a templar or crusader fighting against those who stand against his god.  And it doesn't matter what god he worships... his "job" or "story" in the world can still be any and all of those things-- cloistered cleric, templar, missionary, evangelist, priest etc. etc.  The god merely COLORS what his job is and how he does it.THAT is what I think a subclass should be.By the same token... the wizard (for the most part right now) is the same way.  His subclasses are not wizardly "jobs"-- its not "witch" or "mystic theurge" or "sorcerer" or "archmage" or "spellsword"... instead, they are all based around the types of spells he chooses to specialize in.  Illusions, evocations, necromances, enchantments etc.  Within the fiction, the player can decide he wants to be a witch, and then select any subclass he wants to help exemplify that.  He can choose to be a war mage and then again, select any subclass he wants.And in no case does the player have to "refluff" or ignore anything, because the subclass isn't giving him a background or job that runs counter to what he want his character to be.  Instead, he's just getting mechanical bonuses and advantages to just isolating himself to a smaller segment of what the class on a whole can do.I prefer this system of subclasses for the cleric and wizard, because it gives a whole heap of story onto the cleric and wizard (what deity he worships or what school of spells he casts)... but they don't impact whatever the player wants his cleric or wizard to do in the world.  He is free and clear to make his cleric or wizard whatever he wants... with no refluffing or changing or ignore of pre-written fluff required.Now here's the question...What is the equivalent to this for the fighter and rogue?  What do the fighter and rogue have that aren't "jobs", but rather are things they do that COLOR how they do their job?  What do they have that is the equivalent to the cleric's circle of gods, and the wizard's spell schools?In my other thread I went over the fighter, but why not this time I talk about the rogue?  What is the circle of "things" that impact and color what the rogue's job does?  Well, he's mainly a skill guy.  His main focus is using his abilities to accomplish things.  His brains, his brawn, his presence, his speed, his agility, his willpower.  Does he fight?  Occasionally.  But that's not his focus.  His focus is using his talents and abilities to do stuff.So to me... his circle of "things" that he uses to do his job are his abilities.  And as an extension of that... his skills.  So in my opinion... his subclasses should all be focused around that-- selecting a small segment of ability and skill use that he focuses on, the same way the wizard selects and specializes in a small segment of the available spells at his disposal.The Acrobat?  Good subclass.  He focuses on his physical dexterity for movement at the expense of many others.  The Charlatan?  Good subclass.  He focuses his charisma and intelligence towards deceiving people.  The Thug?  Okay subclass.  He focuses on his strength to accomplish intimidation and physical abuse.  The Rake?  Good subclass, that focuses on physical dexterity to fight.Now are some of these subclass names a bit too "fluffy" for my taste?  Yeah, in a way... and if you could identify them more by what abilities and skills they focus on than, I think it'd be more ideal.  But at least if you are a charlatan, you can still be a nobleman who deceives people, or a bounty hunter who deceives people, or a priest who deceives people, or an artisan that deceives people, and it still makes a whole heap of sense with no seemingly conflicting fluff.   Your "job" is a Fence.  You buy stolen goods to then sell elsewhere.  And your subclass can be a charlatan Fence, or a thug Fence, or an acrobat Fence and it still makes valid sense, because those tell you HOW you behave as a Fence, not a second gig you have in addition to being a fence (like the Contract Killer Fence or the Bodyguard Fence-- to create two subclasses that are the rogue equivalent to the Samurai or Gladiator).That's what I think makes for better subclasses.  They are more open to interpretation and require no refluffing on the part of the player.</blockquote>

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