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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kerleth" data-source="post: 6128435" data-attributes="member: 84383">I like the idea of skills as bonuses to ability checks that was proposed a long time ago, and am mostly okay with the current packet's solution. (Now that I've typed that wizards will immediately release the next packet so noone will know which one I'm talking about, lol). The no skills and just ability checks idea can work to. There is one problem with it though, and I call it The Cleric.The cleric is going to want a decent to great wisdom due to it being tied to their spellcasting. In fact, wisdom is likely to be more important to them than it is to a ranger, rogue, or other typically scout character. This means that the party member most likely to spot an ambush is the cleric. This works for some archetypes of cleric but for many it is jarring. Perception/spot and listen, survival, and track, have all been associated with wisdom in the past, and it is likely much of them will be in next. Now the current packet makes tracking a feat and gives it to the ranger (though based on the description of ability scores it should be intelligence, but that's another issue), and finding food and not getting lost is in as a background trait. That still leaves the spot/listen/perception issue though. I honestly believe that the cleric makes a lot more sense being charisma based. I find it easier to accept a mild mannered cleric skilled with intimidate(you are stil channeling the might of a god), an honest cleric that could be good with bluff (having to reassure others in times of trouble), a cloistered, anti-social monk with diplomacy/pursuade (his position makes him respected and people are more willing to listen), than a cleric with no combat or exploration training who is a star at spotting ambushes, hearing whispered conversations, etc. (divine guidance?)Also, a character who COULD be good at bluffing or intimidating can refrain from doing so based on his own code. He can still be pursuasive and diplomatic, but fights but avoids using options he finds distateful due to his own personal code of honor. This makes sense in the fiction and is not jarring for a player. A cleric with good wisdom simply choosing to not pay attention to his surroundings is a bit more jarring in my opinion. One is a choice of WHICH way to handle a situation, while the other is a choice to handwave away a useful benefit for nothing in return just because.Spellcasting using charisma is just as easily explained as being based on his faith in his deity, his confidence that he has chosen the right path, etc. as it is using wisdom based explanations. In fact, this probably fits better with much of the accompanying fluff from stories and characters who have "struggled with their faith" than wisdom does.I mention this because any "no skill" or "skill based" system has to deal with these sorts of incongruities. Does that mean that they should warp the whole system around it? No. But if these issues aren't addressed at all, then little things like that add up and can create a feeling of "it's just not quite right" for players.</blockquote>

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