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<blockquote data-quote="Valmur_Dwur" data-source="post: 633240" data-attributes="member: 5065">Well as it seems I'm playing devil's advocate here<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> ; it wouldn't apply if you caught someone flat-footed.&nbsp; Of course that means roll inititive<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp;&nbsp; Like I said in my first post that is the beginning of whatever actions you perceive.&nbsp; Again I'm all for a surprise round but there are rules for that also.&nbsp; So what do you want to use opposed Bluff/Sense Motive or a spot check?&nbsp; Neither works very well<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool&nbsp; &nbsp; :cool:"&nbsp; data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" />&nbsp;&nbsp; But then again you could as DM rule 0 anything.&nbsp; I guess as a DM I want the players to at least try to make it seem plausible.&nbsp; I don't see IMO the ability of anyone to advance upon a city guard mumbling and gesturing without being taken aback by it.&nbsp; Depends on the city and the general level of magic and a bunch of other stuff.&nbsp; If you allow the &quot;surprise&quot; round to always go to the player in a non-confrontation scene; then what if it were Orcs or something else that would be more combative.&nbsp; Do we let the MU cast Charm Person as their own &quot;surprise&quot; move every time?&nbsp; Then your back to the fighter holding his sword down or the rogue palming a dagger and wanting the same benefit the MU enjoys.&nbsp; Bottom line if it works for this encounter then I want it as a player to work for every encounter.&nbsp; The +5 to me is earned by beating the inititive check or granted &quot;automatically&quot; if the party is hostile or threatening them.YMMV<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Valmur_Dwur, post: 633240, member: 5065"] Well as it seems I'm playing devil's advocate here:D ; it wouldn't apply if you caught someone flat-footed. Of course that means roll inititive;) Like I said in my first post that is the beginning of whatever actions you perceive. Again I'm all for a surprise round but there are rules for that also. So what do you want to use opposed Bluff/Sense Motive or a spot check? Neither works very well:cool: But then again you could as DM rule 0 anything. I guess as a DM I want the players to at least try to make it seem plausible. I don't see IMO the ability of anyone to advance upon a city guard mumbling and gesturing without being taken aback by it. Depends on the city and the general level of magic and a bunch of other stuff. If you allow the "surprise" round to always go to the player in a non-confrontation scene; then what if it were Orcs or something else that would be more combative. Do we let the MU cast Charm Person as their own "surprise" move every time? Then your back to the fighter holding his sword down or the rogue palming a dagger and wanting the same benefit the MU enjoys. Bottom line if it works for this encounter then I want it as a player to work for every encounter. The +5 to me is earned by beating the inititive check or granted "automatically" if the party is hostile or threatening them. YMMV:D [/QUOTE]

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