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<blockquote data-quote="Mookie1171" data-source="post: 6967638" data-attributes="member: 84186">I tried searching for this and didn't see a clarification anywhereI'm trying to figure out if griffons get bite on a dive attack.Dive says &quot;A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge" target="_blank">charge</a>, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run" target="_blank">run</a> action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.&quot;Griffons have pounce, which says that if the griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.&nbsp; A griffon's full attack is Bite, Claw Claw.So a charge attack would look like this: Bite, Claw, Claw, Rake, RakeCharge: Bite +13, 2d6+4&nbsp; (+2 from charge factored into all attacks)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Claw1 +10, 1d4+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Claw2 +10, 1d4 +2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Rake1 +10, 1d6+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Rake2 +10, 1d6+2Would a dive attack be the same as that, but with double damage for the claws?&nbsp; Or would it only have Claw 1, Claw 2, Rake 1, Rake 2, with no bite, since you can't usually bite on a dive.Dive with Bite&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bite +13, 2d6+4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Claw1 +10, 2d4+4 (double claw damage)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Claw2 +10, 2d4+4 (double claw damage)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Rake1 +10, 1d6+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Rake2 +10, 1d6+2Dive without Bite &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Claw1 +10, 2d4+4 (double claw damage)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Claw2 +10, 2d4+4 (double claw damage)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Rake1 +10, 1d6+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Rake2 +10, 1d6+2If griffons can't Bite on a Dive, it seems like a charge would be better even with the double claw damage on a dive, since charge gives you the 2d6+4 Bite attack, which is better than double damage on the two claws that only adds up to an extra 1d4 +2 per claw or 2d4 +4 total.Thematically though, griffons seem more likely to prefer dives since they're flying, so I thought that may be a mistake and griffons actually get Bite on a Dive because their Pounce says &quot;it can make a full attack&quot; on a charge or dive.Also I wanted to make sure I'm understanding the Rake right.Say the griffon grapples.It makes a touch attack of BAB + STR (not sure if Weapon Focus Bite should count for grapple touch attacks).&nbsp; +7 BAB + 4 STR = +11 touch attack to grapple.&nbsp; It provokes an AoO.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Assume touch attack misses, so the griffon does a second iterative touch attack at +6, which happens to hit. Then, the griffon does a grapple of 1d20 + 15 which succeeds.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The griffon does nonlethal damage of 1d4+4 with its grapple check. It can't use a natural weapon at this time on the first round.Second round, the griffon moves into its opponent's square, provoking an AoO, and then&nbsp; makes a Bite natural attack at -4, then rake twice&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bite + 7, 2d6+4 (-4 for attacking with natural weapon in grapple)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Rake +8, 1d6+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Rake +8, 1d6+2Then in that same round, because its BAB is higher than 5, it gets to do all that again at -5 to attack, right?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bite +2, 2d6+4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Rake +3, 1d6+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Rake +3, 1d6+2Going back to that first grapple round, if the griffon succeeded on its first touch attack of +11 and didn't get hit by the AoO, then succeeded on its grapple check to deal nonlethal damage, would the griffon then be able to use its iterative BAB attack to attack with its natural weapons, Bite +2, Rake +3, Rake +3 at the iterative - 5 BAB in that first round?Sorry for the wall of text.&nbsp; I posted the detailed example, because I'm not sure I'm understanding all of that correctly and want to see if others noticed any mistakes in my examples, so I could figure out how all that is supposed to work for sure.&nbsp; It's probably made more complicated because griffons don't have improved grab, but they do have rake and pounce.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mookie1171, post: 6967638, member: 84186"] I tried searching for this and didn't see a clarification anywhere I'm trying to figure out if griffons get bite on a dive attack. Dive says "[COLOR=#000000][FONT='inherit']A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge"]charge[/URL][COLOR=#000000][FONT='inherit'], but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run"]run[/URL][COLOR=#000000][FONT='inherit'] action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line." [/FONT][/COLOR]Griffons have pounce, which says that if the griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. A griffon's full attack is Bite, Claw Claw. So a charge attack would look like this: Bite, Claw, Claw, Rake, Rake Charge: Bite +13, 2d6+4 (+2 from charge factored into all attacks) Claw1 +10, 1d4+2 Claw2 +10, 1d4 +2 Rake1 +10, 1d6+2 Rake2 +10, 1d6+2 Would a dive attack be the same as that, but with double damage for the claws? Or would it only have Claw 1, Claw 2, Rake 1, Rake 2, with no bite, since you can't usually bite on a dive. Dive with Bite Bite +13, 2d6+4 Claw1 +10, 2d4+4 (double claw damage) Claw2 +10, 2d4+4 (double claw damage) Rake1 +10, 1d6+2 Rake2 +10, 1d6+2 Dive without Bite Claw1 +10, 2d4+4 (double claw damage) Claw2 +10, 2d4+4 (double claw damage) Rake1 +10, 1d6+2 Rake2 +10, 1d6+2 If griffons can't Bite on a Dive, it seems like a charge would be better even with the double claw damage on a dive, since charge gives you the 2d6+4 Bite attack, which is better than double damage on the two claws that only adds up to an extra 1d4 +2 per claw or 2d4 +4 total. Thematically though, griffons seem more likely to prefer dives since they're flying, so I thought that may be a mistake and griffons actually get Bite on a Dive because their Pounce says "it can make a full attack" on a charge or dive. Also I wanted to make sure I'm understanding the Rake right. Say the griffon grapples. It makes a touch attack of BAB + STR (not sure if Weapon Focus Bite should count for grapple touch attacks). +7 BAB + 4 STR = +11 touch attack to grapple. It provokes an AoO. Assume touch attack misses, so the griffon does a second iterative touch attack at +6, which happens to hit. Then, the griffon does a grapple of 1d20 + 15 which succeeds. The griffon does nonlethal damage of 1d4+4 with its grapple check. It can't use a natural weapon at this time on the first round. Second round, the griffon moves into its opponent's square, provoking an AoO, and then makes a Bite natural attack at -4, then rake twice Bite + 7, 2d6+4 (-4 for attacking with natural weapon in grapple) Rake +8, 1d6+2 Rake +8, 1d6+2 Then in that same round, because its BAB is higher than 5, it gets to do all that again at -5 to attack, right? Bite +2, 2d6+4 Rake +3, 1d6+2 Rake +3, 1d6+2 Going back to that first grapple round, if the griffon succeeded on its first touch attack of +11 and didn't get hit by the AoO, then succeeded on its grapple check to deal nonlethal damage, would the griffon then be able to use its iterative BAB attack to attack with its natural weapons, Bite +2, Rake +3, Rake +3 at the iterative - 5 BAB in that first round? Sorry for the wall of text. I posted the detailed example, because I'm not sure I'm understanding all of that correctly and want to see if others noticed any mistakes in my examples, so I could figure out how all that is supposed to work for sure. It's probably made more complicated because griffons don't have improved grab, but they do have rake and pounce. [/QUOTE]

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