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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DudeLove" data-source="post: 369411" data-attributes="member: 7555">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Technically incorporeal undead have a 50% chance of ignoring even the Turning Damage from a good cleric turning undead, but many DM's house rule that it so that it affects incorporeal creatures normally.------------------------------------------------------------------------------That's an interesting interpretation, and if its in the rulebook it could pin down the argument, however I dont believe it is. Having looked through the rules on this I haven't come across any entry where it states that ANY undead have ANY chance of avoiding being turned other than by the cleric not rolling well or where it specifically states in the creatures description.Now I'm going to quote the passage that's causing me trouble from the DM's Guide.Incorporeality (p78)- Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source - except for a force affect, such as magic missile, ordamage inflicted by a ghost touch weapon.So this is where the confusion is. I'm interpreting it like this...When struck by a magic weapon (obviously physical/corporeal) or magic that creates a corporeal affect (fireball, lightning bolt, flame arrow, etc) the creature has a 50% chance to avoid dam...UNLESS the CORPOREAL source is a FORCE effect, then it hits normally.  Positive energy as channeled by the cleric is NOT a corporeal source of damage and so does not need to have the Force designation attached to it to be exempt from the 50% miss chance BECAUSE the 50% miss chance is for corporeal sources of damage (as it states in the section I listed). That listing of the rule for incorporeality is specifically addressing how to deal with CORPOREAL sources of damage and so is NOT addressing damage from INCORPOREAL sources.The damage from a source like Magic Missile is "magical energy" as stated in its description, not "positive energy" and so needs the force descriptor to clarify that it does indeed affect incorporeal creatures.Because it is Key Im also going to include a definition of corporeal so we all have a point of reference Corporeal   1) of or for the body; physical  2) of a material nature; tangibleThe Cleric is "channeling positive energy" in the same way he does when Turning as I have stated before. The rules make NO reference to incorporeality being a factor in the success of a turning attemp and I think that with the exception of the one post on this thread, it is accepted as a given that a turning attempt will affect all undead in range, corporeal or incorpaoreal.With this is mind I'll point to the rule dealing with turningDMG (p139)-Turning undead is a supernatural ability...You must present your holy symbol to turn undead. Turning is considered an attack.This section specifically states that the holy symbol must be used, the holy symbol is corporeal...does that mean the effect of turning is from a corporeal source?When considering, please look at the "other uses for positive energy" section for turning and the description under the cure light wounds spell, they are described the same way (i.e) "channeling positive energy."My appologies for the long posts on this subject but I'm both a player and a DM (though I'll admit that I do play more than I DM) and I would like to have a house rule established based on an understanding of the rules, not an offhand declaration based on what seems cool or expedient.</blockquote>

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