Question about STR 0

[Valkesh]

My question is Believe it or not about the spell Ray of Enfeeblement, a Doubly Empowered, Maximized Ray of Enfeeblement would do 19pts of Str Damage without a Save. Noted, the spell states that the subjects STR cannot drop below 1. but what if that spell is paired off with a Quickened Waves of Fatigue.
The character would then become fatigued and lose another 4pts of str. what if the character had Str 20. would it drop to Str 0?
Now, if he is at Str 0, does that mean all his muscles are unable to respond? if so: he cannot breath. so would that mean that upon casting these two spells (both of them without SV) a character would lie down on the floor unable to do anything but do Fort Saves untill he died?

I add here for reference, both spells:

Waves of Fatigue
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: Yes
Waves of negative energy render all living creatures in the spell’s area fatigued. This spell has no effect on a creature that is already fatigued.


Ray of Enfeeblement
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.

 

[Felix]

Note that Ray of Enfeeblement does not do STR damage. It provides a STR penalty. Meaning this can affect creatures immune to ability damage.

Also, being fatigued (and exhausted) provides a -2 penalty to STR. They are both nameless, but its possible that these two penalties would not stack.

Or, because Ray of Enfeeblement caused a -19 STR penalty, but only reduced STR to 1 (so maybe only 14 of the 19 points were used), when the character becomes fatigued his STR stays at 1, and Ray of Enfeeblement is now only effectively providing a -12 penalty to STR. So the penalty provided by RoE changes when the subject changes.

I'd do this since you shouldn't really be able to reduce a character's STR using RoE in any way. YMMV.

 

[Ferret]

Your reading to much into STR 0, it would simply mean their muscles would have atophied as though they were in a coma, still able to breath, still able to pump blood round veins.

 

[MichaelH]

My question is Believe it or not about the spell Ray of Enfeeblement, a Doubly Empowered, Maximized Ray of Enfeeblement

In 3.5, you can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, but you cannot apply the same metamagic feat to the spell more than once (PH 88).

The character would then become fatigued and lose another 4pts of str.

Actually, fatigued characters take a -2 penalty to Str (PH 308).

what if the character had Str 20. would it drop to Str 0?

Yes. If his Str is 1 and he is subsequently fatigued, he would drop to Str 0.

Now, if he is at Str 0, does that mean all his muscles are unable to respond? if so: he cannot breath. so would that mean that upon casting these two spells (both of them without SV) a character would lie down on the floor unable to do anything but do Fort Saves untill he died?

Not at all. From the DMG, page 289, "Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground." It does not mean he cannot breath. He is helpless. This condition is defined in the PH glossary on page 309.

 

[rrealm]

I'd do this since you shouldn't really be able to reduce a character's STR using RoE in any way. YMMV.

Agreed.

 

[The Souljourner]

As MichaelH said, strength 0 simply means you cannot move and are helpless. It is specifically spelled out in the rules, and thus you cannot die from being at strength 0 (though it certainly makes you more likely to die in a fight).

Fatigue and a strength penalty definitely do stack (unnamed bonuses/penalties from different sources always stack), however, Ray of Enfeeblement can never help get your strength to 0. If your strength is 0, it must be entirely because of penalties other than ray of enfeeblement, since ray of enfeeblement say it can't lower your strength to less than 1.

But that's not so bad. Strength 1 has a heavy load limit of 10 pounds, which means at 11-20 pounds, he can just stagger around, moving a maximum of 5' per round as a full round action. Over 20 pounds, and he collapses under the weight of his gear. Only very lightly equiped monks are likely to have less than 11 pounds of equipment, and almost everyone carries over 20 pounds of equipment.... while you wouldn't be helpless, you'd be prone with no dex bonus and unable to move from your square. That's pretty bad.

-The Souljourner

 

[Scion]

Actually Ray of Enfeeblement says simply that your str score cannot drop below 1.

If we ignore all of the other text of the spell then it would be clear that nothing can reduce your str score below 1 at all.

As it is one would assume it means 'through this spell', but I prefer to use it in my games as a sort of debilitating protection. It makes the spell useful offensively and defensively depending on the situation. It makes things very interesting indeed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually Ray of Enfeeblement says simply that your str score cannot drop below 1.

Right. Read literally, being the target of Ray of Enfeeblement makes you temporarily immune to death-by-Shadow.

-Hyp.

 

[Methos of Aundair]

Originally posted by Hypersmurf

Read literally, being the target of Ray of Enfeeblement makes you temporarily immune to death-by-Shadow.

I would have to disagree with this. As has been pointed out RoE grants a penalty to Str, not drain or damage. A shadow deals Str damage, it does not grant a penalty to your Str score. I can’t see how the ability damage done by a shadow would be stopped by RoE. It is my opinion that the line in RoE stating the targets Str cannot drop below 1 is only in relation to penalties towards Str from either this spell or things directly causing penalties to Str, such as fatigue. I do not believe RoE can be used to “protect” yourself from ability damage. One thing I would do is rule that the penalty and damage overlap rather than stack. In other words if the pc has a Str 18 and was hit by a RoE for 6 points and also hit by a shadow for 4 damage he would not be at a Str of 8. Instead, since his penalties are more than the damage from the shadow, his Str would be as if he had a 12. If later the shadow struck again and did 4 more points of Str damage, bringing his total ability damage to 8, or Str 10, than this would be used since its modifier is higher than that of RoE.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is my opinion that the line in RoE stating the targets Str cannot drop below 1 is only in relation to penalties towards Str from either this spell or things directly causing penalties to Str, such as fatigue.

Actually, it's my opinion that the probable intention is that it is only in relation to penalties from the spell itself.

But that's not what it says, which is why I said 'Read literally'.

What's written is fairly unambiguous - "The subject's Str score cannot drop below 1". The only way a shadow can kill you is by dropping your Str score below 1... which is something that, by the wording of RoE, cannot happen.

-Hyp.