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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pax" data-source="post: 1681146" data-attributes="member: 6875">Which, as I and others have said, is not explicitly the correct way to read them.  You continually make the assumption that the restriction in AD trumps the ability granted by SH. By that logic, the restriction in the Wizard class (only spells on the sorceror/Wizard list) trumps the ability granted in AD (spells in domain list added to classlist), and AD is utterly useless.  Feats inherently modify what is possible.  IMO - and in others' opinions as well - SH provides one way to cast more curative spells than with just AD alone. It comes down to a "chicken or the egg" question - which is taken into account LAST, the limit of [1/day/level] from AD, or the limit of [#=wisdom bonus] from SH.  You cannot point to anywhere in the rules as written that specifies AD comes last, nor can I point to anywhere that specifies the opposite.  Thus, my insistance that it comes down to balance.  I *have* addressed them - and balance is the counter.  You, however, simply dismiss that outof hand.  Your mind is already made up, and you refuse to see any other alternative; you don't want SH to expand the healing capacity, so you refuse to acknowledge that your position is no more grounded in a rule you can point to that specifies AD's limits trump SH's benefits. Simple idea: no one feat trumps the benefits of another feat unless it specifically and explicitly says so, or some other passage of the rules does so.  Only if you TAKE said feat.  We're measuring pure ability to sling spells, not penetrate SR or whatever.  Practised Spellcaster is not required to be a Theurge.  Desireable, yes; but not required.  I neglected nothing of the sort; since neither of them can be ofthe sort thatis SH or AD, they were irrelevant to the matter at hand.  notice, I made a conditional statement - that, if a Wizard wanted to be good at healing and hada Wisdomof 16 or better, it would be more advantageous for him to take levels of Cleric and Mystic theurge.  Only in cases where the presumption is "all else equal".  not where the basic, founding principle of the comparison is RELIANT on a difference in an attribute, class, race, or whatever.  The fundamental concept of my proposed comparison was a Wizard(x) with a Wisdom of 12 to 15, versus a Wizard(3)/Cleric(3)/Mystic Theurge (x-6) with a wisdom of 16+.  A lot less, actually, than how you skewed the results by giving the straight-class caster an odd-numbered level, thus costing the theurge two spell levels.  Losing 5th and 6th level spells is a LOT more of a difference than losing one spontaneous spell per day.  Except that one of those healing spells is a Mass variant, and I didn't care to argue over how many targets the wizard might or might not reasonably expect to have.  I see no reason to consume two feats for the Theurge, actually.  Since being a healer is entirely secondary to him, he need only consider ONE Practised Spellcaster, to keep up in Arcane casting.  Remember, we're talking about a Wizard wanting to add some healing, which means the cleric levels are a sidelight, and nothing more.  You micalculated.  For the theurge, the CModW are worth 2d8+6, for 22 max; the CSerW are 3d8+6, for 30 max.  And yes, I am specifically calculating this with a LOWER caster level, because this character would NOT care to boost their Cleric caster level - especially at only 8th level!  Further, the Wizard(8) won't HAVE four 4th elvelspells, with a 16 intelligence as you indicated for the example.  He'll have 1 base, plus one for intelligence.  That's two spells.  Three, if he's a specialist - but he'd also have to avoid taking Conjuration as an opposed school, then.  Since we're not looking at tinked-out-to-the-max smackdown builds, I'd say a Generalist is the more appropriate measure.  Thus, two total 4th level spells, meaning two of those spontaneous casts have to move to lower-level spells.  Third-level slots, in this case.  Please, do lets try and keep the example builds within the bounds of the rules, shall we?  Anyway, the totals (when corrected) come to 248hp for the theurge, versus 213 for the AD/SH Wizard.  If we did apply Practised Spellcaster, that would be a nice bit MORE - another 21hp (net effective caster level of 9), bringing the comparison to 271 (theurge) vs 213 (AD/SH), for better than a 25% advantage ... still to the Theurge.  Again, remarkably enough, an advantage (though only about 20% this time, w/o the Practised Spellcaster feat) in favor of the Theurge.  What a surprise, isn't it, that 17 healing spells should be at least a little better than 7 healing spells in total effect?  Only because you incorrectly guaged the number of spells available at the top level, when counting up the Wizard's capacity ... which then shifted the count quite dramatically in favor of your argument.  And ... for gags, let's look at AVERAGE healing, instead of maximum - which means, 4.5hp per 1d8 of healing:[bq]MT2, sans Practised Spellcaster (5/5/4/3) = (5*1) + (5*10.5) + (4*15) + (3*19.5) = Avg of 161hp healedMT2, with Practised Spellcaster (5/5/4/3) = (5*1) + (5*10.5) + (4*18) + (3*22.5) = Avg of 188hp healedW8 #1 (0/1/1/3/2) = (0*0) + (1*9.5) + (1*17) + (3*21.5) + (2*26) = Avg of 143hp healed[/bq]  So even on average, where sheer volume of spells is de-emphasised, the Theurge still has the advantage.  What's more, he can fire off his potential healing in smaller "chunks".  Let's compare WORST-case capacity to heal, shall we?  IOw, what happens when the dice are not with the player, and he rolls all 1's for healing spells:[bq]MT2, sans Practised Spellcaster (5/5/4/3) = (5*1) + (5*6) + (4*8) + (3*9) = Minimum of 94hp healedMT2, with Practised Spellcaster (5/5/4/3) = (5*1) + (5*6) + (4*11) + (3*12) = Minimum of 115hp healedW8 #1 (0/1/1/3/2) = (0*0) + (1*6) + (1*10) + (3*11) + (2*12) = Minimum of 73hp healed[/bq]  So.  We have the straight AD/SH Wizard, who can heal 73-213 hitpoints (averaging 143hp) ... versus the Theurge who can heal (without Practised Spellcaster) 94-248 hitpoints (averaging 161hp), or a Practised theurge, who heals 115-271 hitpoints (averageing 188hp).  Not so - first off, if he's flushing ALL of his 3d and 4th level spells for healing, his "access" to 4th level arcane spells is illusory.  Second of all, as noted above, you made a significant error in calculating how many spells of 4th level were available for healing.  Versus a theurge without Practised Spellcaster, your straight wizard gets 88.8% asmuch healing; versus a theurge with Practised Spellcaster, the percentage drops to 76.1%  And you forgot something.  After doing all that healing, what have the characters got left ... ?  The character is still nominally a Wizard, after all!  Your straight wizard ... has only (4/3/2/0/0).  OTOH, either Theurge version has (4/4/3/2) - an extra arcane spell of each level from 1st to 3d.  And yes, in both cases, that presupposes a 16 intelligence and not a specialist.  The end result of this flurry of healing is that the straight wizard couldn't toss a fireball to save his life, but the theurge is just as capable of doing so - twice in a row even - as he was before doing any healing.  So.  By going theurge, you get roughl 13-31% more healing on average, AND, preserve more of your Arcane potential for before and after using that healing.  That gives the Theurge a clear advantage on both sides of the Wizard/Cleric dividing line.  If the AD/SH character wishes to match the Theurge in arcane potential, he has to fall remarkably further behind in terms of healing.  The only disadvantage is being a spell level and a half behind (depending on if total level is even or odd).  So; I'd say that, taking A. correct numbers, B. both the presence and absence of Practised Spellcaster (Cleric), C. remaining arcane potential, and D. maximum, minimum and Average healing capacity alike ...   ... the result is clear: if you have a 16+ wisdom, and want to add so much healing that two feats seem to be a worthwhile cost, the character is better off nearly all around multiclassing into Mystic Theurge.  Plain as the nose on your own face, I'd say.  No disadvantage, other than not having an artificially-overstated advantage.  While not yet having access to the next spell level, he'd still have an overall increase inspells-per-day.  In closing: your analyses were flawed, your presumptions have been disproved, and balance has been seen to not be threatened by allowing AD and SH to work with full transparency.  Any questions?</blockquote>

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