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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Frostmarrow" data-source="post: 446836" data-attributes="member: 1122">Perhaps they are calculating the classes in the wrong way? For example is the ability to heal your fellows really an advantage or is it in fact just a chore? Moreover is the ability to have a lot of skill points really such a great advantage over having few? This might sound odd but an incompetent character such as a fighter can be just as fun to play as a professional rogue. What good is 20+ ranks in hide and move silently in a party of iron-clad fighters, clerics and paladins?My point is that all things tactical (on the mat, in combat) can be weighed and measured but the stuff that isn't related to momentary survival can't be measured by the same stick. So in order to make a class-calc engine, surely one must take into consideration which abilities are a bonus (to the player, not the character) and which are simply dead weight.Bardic Knowledge is nice for the DM but it doesn't do much for the player. When your character knows something the DM usually tells everybody what you know and then for role-playing reasons you get to repeat what she said. Now, this is not a bonus in my 'player'-eyes.The ability to identify items is a chore too. Sometimes the DM gives you a note to read from but it's still not something them makes you cooler, it's just something that needs to be done. Time you might better spend on crafting cool stuff.Bardic Music is listed as an outstanding ability. The only one on the sheet, no less. In spite of this the bard is the least played class of all. This mayhap means that it's not such an outstanding ability after all in the eyes of the player.Pass without trace is a pointless ability. One might argue that it might save your life in certain circumstances but I don't think that this happens very often. In fact a mod that calls on this ability for survival is probably bad anyway.etc, etc. You get the idea.We should try to identify which abilities are the ones we look for and chose by when picking class.Edit: So in the ranger example above you can see that there are only tactical abilities included. You could add a whole slew of pointless abilities and chores to that write up without breaking it as a class. (If you indeed agree that it's balanced as is.)Let's say that this ranger can speak with animals once per day at 7th level, concoct goodberries at 11th,  speak with plants at 15th and use stonetell at 19th. (Not very good choices I know but I had to come up with four examples on the fly.)Those extra abilities don't make the class any better (tactical wise) but are added simply for flavor.I've decided to call the class "Nimrod". <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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