Question on downgrading a standard monster to a minion?

[NewJeffCT]

I'm still pretty new to DMing 4E, but had a question on some standard monsters and downgrading them to minions if they have no "minion" in the Monster Builder.

The monsters in question are the Ghoul and the Wight. Both are level 5 creatures and neither has a minion until you get really high in level. However, in order to give the PCs more targets, I wanted to add some minions to the encounter.

If I took the Ghoul and the Wight in the Monster Builder and downgraded them to minion, they seem to retain the special ability part of their standard attack - namely to immobilize for the Ghoul & to drain a healing surge for the Wight? Is this correct?

Thanks!

 

[Quickleaf]

Hey again

Those effects are just too much for minions (well maybe at epic level it would be ok). Here's what I would do...

Ghouls: these guys are about overwhelming hunger for flesh. I imagine them clambering over each other to bit PCs. So how about something like "when 3 or more ghoul minions are adjacent to a PC that PC is immobilized" OR "when 3 or more ghoul minions are adjacent to each other, any PC starting their turn adjacent to any part of the ghoul conga line are immobilized."

Eights: these guys are about life-sapping and the weight of the grave. I imagine the air darkening and growing cold as they gradually reveal their numbers. How about: "any PC spending a healing surge while adjacent to a wight minion is weakened until the end of their next turn" OR "a wight minion drains 1 healing surge on a critical hit" OR "for every wight minion adjacent to a PC the PC's healing surge value is decreased by 3."

 

[ggroy]

If I took the Ghoul and the Wight in the Monster Builder and downgraded them to minion, they seem to retain the special ability part of their standard attack - namely to immobilize for the Ghoul & to drain a healing surge for the Wight? Is this correct?

Does the immobilize require a save to end?

I suppose "minionizing" could involve changing an immobilize save ends, to an immobilize lasting only one round (and ends automatically the next round).

Not quite sure how to "minionize" a draining healing surge ability.

 

[the Jester]

I agree that draining a healing surge is too good for a minion (although on a crit only, I like it), but immobilized is okay. Though if your ghoul minions do so, I'd call them minion controllers, not soldiers.

 

[Abstruse]

To fix it, you'd have to make the power insanely complex. Here's what I'd do:

For the Ghoul:
Hit: X damage and target is Slowed until end of Ghoul Minion's next turn. If target is already Slowed, target is instead Immobilized until end of Ghoul Minion's next turn.

This mimics the ability of the full-blown version, but isn't as bad. It also rewards minions for ganging up on one target. The wording on that one seems off, but there's a few creatures (and I think a couple of minions) that have similar upgradable status attacks like that.

The wight isn't as big of a problem in and of itself since it's only Level 5 except you'll have more of them in the encounter. Maybe give it an encounter power attack (instead of the at-will basic attack) that does no damage but drains a healing surge instead? Require multiple wight minions be adjacent to the target for the attack? Or maybe just "If a creature starts its turn adjacent to 3 or more wight minions, it loses 1 healing surge"? That seems even nastier than an attack honestly...you could also make it so that the attack can only target bloodied enemies.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Does the immobilize require a save to end?

I suppose "minionizing" could involve changing an immobilize save ends, to an immobilize lasting only one round (and ends automatically the next round).

Not quite sure how to "minionize" a draining healing surge ability.

Yes, the standard ghoul attacks are as follows:

Claws • At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +12 vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 + 4 damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).

Ghoulish Bite • At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one immobilized, stunned, or unconscious creature); +10 vs. AC
Hit: 3d6 + 4 damage, and the target is stunned (save ends).​

For the minion in MonsterBuilder, it still has those two attacks, just one does 3 damage and the bite does 10 damage.

 

[ggroy]

Yes, the standard ghoul attacks are as follows:

Claws • At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +12 vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 + 4 damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).

Ghoulish Bite • At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one immobilized, stunned, or unconscious creature); +10 vs. AC
Hit: 3d6 + 4 damage, and the target is stunned (save ends).​

For the minion in MonsterBuilder, it still has those two attacks, just one does 3 damage and the bite does 10 damage.

In this case, I would be inclined to replace the "save ends" conditions, with conditions which only last one round. They go away the next round at the end of the affected player's next turn.

 

[Saeviomagy]

In this case, I would be inclined to replace the "save ends" conditions, with conditions which only last one round. They go away the next round at the end of the affected player's next turn.

That actually makes them slightly worse a lot of the time, because you can't grant the target a save to get rid of them early.

For the ghoul, I'd remove the bite. The one-two punch of immobilised/stunned is clearly going to be a lot more powerful if you've got 4 minions doing it than if a single creature is. Being immobilised isn't too bad, and it sets you up for attacks from the full ghouls, which is about right.

For the wight I'd leave it as it is. Ok it's nasty, but it's not that bad - the assumption with minions is that they do full (averaged) damage, and the energy drain is part of that.

 

[Infiniti2000]

That actually makes them slightly worse a lot of the time, because you can't grant the target a save to get rid of them early.

This. It totally dicks the warden.

I like Abstruse's fix.

 

[Abstruse]

This. It totally dicks the warden.

I like Abstruse's fix.

If you use mine, make sure there's a second attack that does more damage vs. immobilized enemies. That's part of the fun of ghouls and the reason I always pair them with grabby zombies. Ghouls freeze you, then they rip into you to start eating you.