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Message: <blockquote data-quote="crantastic" data-source="post: 4627945" data-attributes="member: 25298"><pre-rant>well, i was just thinking that perhaps the designers who wrote the powers should be shot, and now that i've realized there's no longer a "Hold Person" spell, i know they should. </pre-rant><rant>of course, there may be one, hidden in the PHB, but who would know with that pathetic excuse for an index? one page of 6pt font?! so add another 50 cents to the damn book and give us something we can use! better yet, cut some costs by cutting the full-color, full page ad at the end!</rant>....ok, better now....I'm not sure if your transcription of the Infernal Moons Curse was accurate, but in the text you've presented it says "held immobilized."  not the best grammar, and either this is a redundancy, or the target is under two or more effects: immobilization, restraint (which also includes immobilization), and possibly both helpless and stunned, since there's no longer a "held" or "paralyzed".  I'm just going through the possibilities on PHB 277.if they're simply immobilized, they're not helpless. they can still take actions and move via teleportation. unless the minions are >= 8' tall, how're they bull-rushing those who're being held 5' off the ground? dragging them by the ankles with their teeth? raising a hand to haul them along like a helium balloon? if so, what're they dropping to do it?if they're restrained, then they can't be yanked about. to me, that's what the curse is doing, raising and holding fast a target that's writhing in agony from the poison.  it says nothing about horizontal movement (c.f. Levitate, PHB 162) if the tactics section of the npc's doesn't discuss the caster lifting and then either him or his minions dumping chars into the pits using the technique you're considering, then i think you're misinterpreting. i readily admit that it's a very appealing tactic!finally, Catching yourself under "Forced Movement" on PHB 285-286 applies only to being pushed over an edge, causing a fall.  so you can push people into bonfires and traps on the same level as you all day, but if they're 10' down, you can try to catch yourself.  seems reasonable to me.  and since it seems grinder combats are an issue in 4e, wouldn't you want to provide more opportunities to deal some damage without all those pesky saves?</blockquote>

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