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Message: <blockquote data-quote="toberane" data-source="post: 258583" data-attributes="member: 4968">This is true.  In our group, no one genereally will say anythiung about you playing with ANY of the books open.  Most of us DM ourselves, and if the current DM is trying to look up a ruling in his DMG, there are usually three or four players trying to look up the same ruling in our own DMGs.  Why?  Not to get the best advantage out of it, but simply to speed up the "flipping through rulebooks" section of the game.No one generally flips through the Monster Manual during a game session, more because it would be considered "impolite" than because we have a rule against it.  Heck I usually play with the DMG open in front of me sitting on top of my open PHB.  But if there are any rules that the DM needs to change, that's great.  Typically, for intelligent monsters, the DM will add a class level (or several) to the monsters, giving them more skills, feats, and abilities, so that even if we know what this particular type of demon does, we don't know what magic items it has on and what classes it has taken some levels in.  In cases like this, the DM has customized the monsters, so our knowledge from the MM gives us a vague overview of the monster type, and nothing more.As far as being able to keep information from the players in order to preserve their sense of amazement, I think a good DM can do that even if the players know all the material in the rulebooks.  That's where the DM's creativity and inspiration come in.  The characters go in search of mysteries and secrets, and every one of them that the players uncover will offer the same sense of excitement that was being discussed earlier when the players gained Prestige Classes.Now, here's another issue to be broached in the player knowledge vs. character knowledge debate: maturity.  All of the players in our game range from about 30 to about 45 years old, and most of us have been gaming for 2 decades or more.  We are perfectly capable of saying "I know that that thing is going to probably destroy my favorite sword, but he's standing on top of the unconscious Princess Cilia, so My character would attack!"  We can be attacked by demons that have characteristics not listed in the MM without shouting "Hey!  Demons aren't supposed to be like that!"  We can accept the responsibility of trying an obscure action that the DM doesn't know the rule for, and then honestly look up the description when he asks with no embellishment.My point is, we are mature enough to realize that without the guidelines provided by the rules and the ingenuity of the DM, D&D might as well be monopoly.  DMs who restrict access to certain books often do so to avoid cheating.  And if the players are too immature to realize that cheating makes the game less enjoyable for everyone (themselves included), then perhaps the players need these kind of restrictions.  If they are going to point their fingers at the DM everytime he makes a rules call that differs from the books (as is his right), maybe they shouldn't be allowed to look at those books.  Or maybe they should find another group, or maybe they should just go home and play a computer game.EDIT: Note that age does not necessarily equal maturity.  I gamed with people my age or older that were as bad as 11 year olds when it comes to power gaming, metagaming, etc.  and I've gamed with 14 year olds who were very good role-players and could cery honestly separate player knowledge from character knowledge.</blockquote>

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