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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Harlock" data-source="post: 189574" data-attributes="member: 4545">caution: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil spoilers, like you haven't read it.Well, just when I thought I had weighed in entirely on the issue I have decided to muddy it even further.  It's funny what pops into your head at 4:00am when you cannot sleep.  Anyway...I agree with rounser on this one. I don't think *most* things are irrevocably evil.  I think even Evil characters are smart enough to parley with good groups to get what they want.  Sunless Citadel goes a long way to prove this.  I think even good characters would parley with evil characters to get what they want.  For instance in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil it wouldn't be entirely unfeasible for a good aligned group to meet up with a group of pissed off Iuz worshippers looking for revenge on Tharizdun's followers.  Isn't it concievable that these two groups seeing that they could both help each other might team up for a bit?  Maybe.Also in support of the default setting is the fact that the Book of Vile Darkness, which is supposed to detail evil, makes mention of what most people (with our 21st century moral blinders firmly in place) would call evil.  To quote from the Enworld hosted Monte Cook chat part II: "Monte:  In a nutshell? It's about introducing evil of all types into your campaign. It explores some really dark topics, and talks about how to handle them in your campaign. This includes.... Diseases, poison, selling your soul, sacrifices, perversion, corruption, evil spells (and what makes a spell evil), torture, self-mutilation, demon lords, archdevils, evil artifacts, and more. It has a lot of plot hooks and ideas for villainous motivations beyond the norm."Does murder of cowering, wimpering humanoid children fit into this?  Not specifically, but I'm willing to bet there is room.  Also, while lying awake I thought of this.  What is Good and what is evil?  Well, I dug out my Websters and found this definition for evil : "Anything causing injury or harm."  By this definition even the sun is evil, because after all, a sunburn hurts.  I'd like to try and define evil as this "anything devious from the moral norms of a given society."  Is that acceptable to anyone?  It muddies things significantly if it is.  In a society where "good" (i.e. kittens, rainbows, paladins, unicorns... you get the picture) is prevailent anything bad (humanoids, devils, demons, murder) is evil.  What about in a society where evil the moral norm?  Would hobgoblins think kittens and unicorns are bad? Probably. Would they view it as evil? It's hard to finger that one since I (hopefully) don't think like a hobgoblin.  Where morally neutral society fits into this, I'm not sure. I guess if it is convienient it is good and if it's not easy, it is bad.  I'd like input on that.  All of it.So, in conclusion I don't hink I've added anything significant to this thread, but hopefully I've given you something to think about.  Again, to me it's all relevant upon the world the DM creates.  Let this be a lesson to you DMs: well defined moral codes help players to roleplay. It gives them something to shoot for, whether good or evil... of course a morally ambiguous campaign in which the PCs have to tread lightly because they are ignorant of the laws has it's place too.  Inconclusive as usual...</blockquote>

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