Questions about ranged touch attacks, stoneskin and soft cover

[Abraxas]

I was wondering if there is a FAQ or sage advice response that addresses a couple three things that have just come up in a game I play in.

1) Does making a ranged touch attack with a spell provoke AoOs in the same manner as firing a ranged weapon? (assuming casting defensively and avoiding the AoO from casting)?

2) If a caster with stoneskin up is struck but not injured while casting a spell does he need to make a concentration check?

By my reading of the spellcasting and combat rules the answer to both would be no.

3) Does soft cover prevent AoOs?

 

[Hypersmurf]

2) If a caster with stoneskin up is struck but not injured while casting a spell does he need to make a concentration check?

Well, the concentration check normally results from 'Damaged during the action'. If you're not damaged, there's no problem...

3) Does soft cover prevent AoOs?

There's argument as to whether soft cover applies against melee attacks with reach or not

I'm in the 'Yes it does, since cover for melee attacks against non-adjacent opponents uses the rules for determining cover against ranged weapons', and soft cover applies against ranged weapons. In which case yes, it prevents AoOs.

Others say 'That sentence only tells you what corners of squares to draw lines from; soft cover only applies against ranged attacks, not against melee attacks, adjacent or non-adjacent'. In which case no, since soft cover does not apply to melee weapons, it will not prevent an AoO (which are always made with melee weapons, with very, very few exceptions).

-Hyp.

 

[Abraxas]

posted by Hypersmurf
Well, the concentration check normally results from 'Damaged during the action'. If you're not damaged, there's no problem...

I agree with you but I've been discussing it with someone who thinks there should be one because of the requirement for a concentration check due to "Vigorous Motion".

posted by Hypersmurf
I'm in the 'Yes it does, since cover for melee attacks against non-adjacent opponents uses the rules for determining cover against ranged weapons', and soft cover applies against ranged weapons. In which case yes, it prevents AoOs.

Thats my view on it also.

Just wondering if any of these things have been addressed in an "official" source.

 

[AuraSeer]

1) Does making a ranged touch attack with a spell provoke AoOs in the same manner as firing a ranged weapon? (assuming casting defensively and avoiding the AoO from casting)?

No. Rolling the dice to aim your ray is considered part of casting the spell, not a separate action that can provoke separately.

2) If a caster with stoneskin up is struck but not injured while casting a spell does he need to make a concentration check?

If he is struck by a regular attack but stoneskin prevents all the damage, then he need not make a check.
However, if the attack has some non-damaging special effect that would itself disrupt casting, the caster does need to check against that. (For instance, a monster with Improved Grab may grapple the caster and force a Concentration check for that reason.)

 

[UltimaGabe]

No. Rolling the dice to aim your ray is considered part of casting the spell, not a separate action that can provoke separately.

I disagree. Sure, you don't provoke Attacks of Opportunity for casting the spell- however, it's still a ranged attack. It doesn't need to be a separate action to provoke an attack of opportunity- a person moving through three threatened squares technically provokes three attacks of opportunity, regardless of whether the attacker can take them or not (which, for the record, he can't). But that doesn't mean he still didn't provoke three attacks of opportunity. Casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity, regardless of what it is. Casting Defensively prevents the attack of opportunity from the casting part of the spell, but the rules say nothing about allowing you to make a ranged attack without provoking.

The rules specifically state that attacking with a Regular touch spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, and therefore attacking with a Regular touch spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The rules say nothing, however, about being able to use a Ranged Touch spell without provoking attacks of opportunity. It DOES, however, state that using a ranged attack DOES provoke an attack of opportunity. It says nothing about actions bleeding together, or any sort of clause allowing you to use anything as such, and therefore, since no rule allows it, the default is to assume it provokes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A person moving through three threatened squares technically provokes three attacks of opportunity, regardless of whether the attacker can take them or not (which, for the record, he can't). But that doesn't mean he still didn't provoke three attacks of opportunity.

Poor example...

"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

It's not that there are three opportunities, but he can only use one of them.

It only counts as one opportunity.

Nevertheless, your underlying point is a good one. For example, someone who attempts a Disarm with an unarmed strike is potentially provoking an AoO for two different reasons (unarmed attack, and a Disarm), but he would only draw a single AoO. If he has Improved Unarmed Strike, then he does not provoke an AoO for making an unarmed attack... but he still provokes an AoO for making a Disarm attempt.

Likewise, we might say that someone attacking with a Ray of Frost potentially provokes an AoO for two different reasons - casting a spell, and making a ranged attack. Casting Defensively removes the AoO for casting... but not the AoO for making a ranged attack.

However... I'm not sure I agree that 'making a ranged attack' provokes an AoO.

Taking the Attack (Ranged) action certainly does - it's in the Table of Action Types. If you hurl a missile from the Produce Flame you cast last round, you're using the Attack (Ranged) action, and you provoke an AoO. But if you cast Ray of Frost, you're not using the Attack (Ranged) action, you're using the Cast a Spell action.

Attacking with a ranged weapon does - it's an example given in the text in the PHB (though not the SRD) under the description of AoOs. Which is why someone making a Full Attack with a bow draws AoOs, even though the Table of Action Types defines Full Attack as AoO: No. They're attacking with a ranged weapon.

Is a Ray of Frost a ranged weapon, though? It's a ranged attack, certainly, but does one class it as a weapon?

After all, the AoO for casting a spell explicitly occurs at the beginning of casting. Which means that the attack roll happens at a later time, after the AoO for casting has already been resolved. So in theory, if the ranged attack of a Ray of Frost provokes an AoO, then casting (non-defensively) the spell could provoke two AoOs from someone with Combat Reflexes - one for casting, and one (later) for attacking. Unlike the unarmed Disarm example above, the two opportunities do not occur simultaneously, but are separated by the duration of a standard action - the first AoO is provoked when casting begins, and the second when casting ends.

So unless one is in the habit of granting Combat Reflexed opponents two AoOs for a single spell, then it would seem that the convention is that the ranged attack of a Ray of Frost does not in itself provoke.

The rules say nothing, however, about being able to use a Ranged Touch spell without provoking attacks of opportunity. It DOES, however, state that using a ranged attack DOES provoke an attack of opportunity.

Where?

I see that the Attack (Ranged) action provokes, and that attacking with a ranged weapon provokes, but nothing to suggest that any ranged attack provokes.

Though I may be missing something.

-Hyp.

 

[Abraxas]

For those that believe a ranged touch attack provokes an AoO, would you also subject users of magic items that produce spell effects requiring a ranged touch attack to an AoO?

It seems like a pretty big oversight to not state that wands, staves, and items that require you to make a ranged touch attack provoke AoOs.

Also wouldn't it violate the number of actions you can make in one round? Using a spell trigger item is a standard action, making a ranged attack is a standard action, normally, you can only perform one standard action (+ a move action). To me, at least, this supports the idea that the ranged touch attack is part of the cast a spell (use an item) standard action.

 

[dcollins]

I was wondering if there is a FAQ or sage advice response that addresses a couple three things that have just come up in a game I play in...

Here's my vote, based on how the rules read to me:
(1) No.
(2) No.
(3) That must be some funky 3.5 thing and homie don't play that.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(3) That must be some funky 3.5 thing and homie don't play that.

Right. Cover provided by creatures is now 'soft cover', and has some language that provokes debate

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Is a Ray of Frost a ranged weapon, though? It's a ranged attack, certainly, but does one class it as a weapon?

3.0 Tome and Blood seems to do exactly that, by allowing wizards to take feats such as Weapon Focus (Ray).