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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mark" data-source="post: 1022327" data-attributes="member: 5">I don't see you accuse many people of trolling, so I can only assume that you don't understand my point.  If something is so relevant that it requires purposefully calling out a lawyer to discuss a legal point in a publicly viewed forum, then it surprises me you haven't included a clarification Email solicited from WotC or some insight from whatever lawyer you use on your own.  It'll have to include references to both trademark law and contract law, but I'm sure that's all eaily done for someone other than myself, since I am not a lawyer.  In any event, sometimes a simplification cuts to the heart of the matter more quickly than dancing around the same old tired rhetoric.I happen to find it fairly obvious that in the one case they are claiming "d20' as it refers to the "d20 System" as PI while in the latter case they are using the same three characters "d", "2" and "0" to be representational of the common gaming object, a twenty-sided die.  It seems quite possible to my-non-lawyer-self that someone can trademark "Le Car" without considering anyone who refers an automobile in the French language as infringing on that trademark.The earliest legal rtf file I have from the first SRD includes "You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark." which preceeds, and perhaps supercedes (as I understand it, as a non-lawyer), the restrictions put on something as PI, or even the contractual use of something as OGC.  A contract, from my understanding, cannot give the right to something that is not empowered to give, and the quoted clause above removes the power from the contract to give the right to use of a trademark in certain instances.WotC has for some time now been quietly claiming d20 as trademark (even as they have also been registering "d20 System" as a trademark) so their moving "d20" into PI comes as no surprise to me.  There's an important distinction between claiming trademark and registering a trademark and as I understand it, making such a claim for a period of time strengthens a later registration.  Further, having a number of parties accept the limitations of a contract and thereby be acknowledging your claim to a trademark would likely additionally strengthen such a claim if a registration of such a trademark is ever sought.  I can only imagine that they might be doing such in a effort to offset any common usage of the term "d20" as it is used to refer to a system rather than a common piece of gaming equipment.Using the characters "d", "2" and "0" to be representational of the common gaming object, a twenty-sided die, within a body of work would not be a challenge to their claimed trademark of "d20" as it refers to a system (and is further supported as by their use of it in that manner within the SRD text), in my limited non-lawyer understanding.  However, even as a non-lawyer, I would think using it in such a manner as to claim compatibility with the "d20 System" or "d20 System logo" and by that means get around the restictions they place on those trademarks is seemingly what they are trying to curtail.Whether I, or anyone for that matter, finds it relevant really is not an issue of consequence.  A legal ruling would do wonders for this discussion.  Until someone challenges these things in court, it's all rhetoric that's been beat to death on the OGL list-servers.  Railing against the machine seems further ineffectual when the railing is coming from someone riding atop said machine.  If you really feel the subject is "relevant", why don't you send WotC a query on the matter?  I'm sure they'd be happy to clear it up for you and you can inform us of the results.  If you ever find one of my posts to a "serious" thread of yours doesn't meet your standard of approval in the future, do us both a favor and don't symbolically roll your eyes.  Simply ask for a clarification, and I'll be quite happy to set you straight on what I mean.John Nephew - I believe the distinction to be a matter of usage of the term "d20" as explained above.</blockquote>

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