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<blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 5776813" data-attributes="member: 326"><p>Hey Buugipopuu! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Before I respond to your points, lets just address a few things about game balance. </p><p></p><p>Firstly, perfect game balance isn't achievable in an rpg as far reaching as D&D. Its a goal to aspire to certainly, but at a certain point you have to let it go.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, the higher in level you go (in 3/3.5E anyway) the more difficult the game is to keep balanced and the easier it is to abuse with min-maxing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My mistake I thought you meant the spell rather than the Divine Ability.</p><p></p><p>Incidently to shapechange into an Astral Hydra you would need to be at least Level 58, in divine terms that means you should be bordering on an Intermediate Deity.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Well, firstly it wouldn't be 60 damage at 58 Hit Dice, now would it.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, you could argue that the Astral Hydra should really only get 2 breaths every round.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You do need to have encountered the monster you are shapechanging into of course.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Yet you seem to be listing MULTIPLE abilites as required to (in your own words) 'accomplish anything' (as per the next quote). If you are 'requiring' MULTIPLE divine and cosmic abilities then you are encroaching on ECL 100 play as it is.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>So some powers are less effective than others, how is this any different from spells and feats?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've read the sentence multiple times and I cannot make head nor tail of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm flattered that you are so invested in the book that you put in the time. Glad you are getting so much out of it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your fix is what?</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I've always thought that attack was the best defence. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>...and thus ECL 160-200 which is borderline where the game is loosely balanced to (even by my definition of the term in your eyes).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're stacking multiple abilities to get a benefit better than single abilities.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p>Just because some powers are not as effective in combat as others doesn't mean they are unbalanced. Thieving [Effect] is the perfect example of this.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>LOL! Actually some people play to roleplay, not roll-play.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hardly universally beneficial for combat though.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>"Wonderfully balanced" as in, balanced to the same extent as the Core Rules or Epic Level Handbook.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm happy to go over any Divine Abilities you think are notably too powerful or too weak. Feel free to list them.</p><p></p><p>Cosmic abilities are potentially a different matter. Unattainable until ECL 60+ and even then, you can't get 2 Cosmic Abilities until about ECL 120+. Plus they are esoteric powers, meaning the deity would have to find them first.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'll defer to your power gaming knowledge on this one.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>That seems to be all you're doing. From what you have said above you must stand over the shoulder of your fellow gamers and say "Don't take that power take this one because otherwise you are no use to our party."</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>On the contrary, in the Challenge Ratings/Encounter Level document (free pdf) I actually specifically explained to DMs how to tackle the difference between Basic Groups and Min-Maxed Power Gamers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The idea that min-maxing makes a difference is hardly a revelation. Of course it makes a difference - thats the whole point of it! <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /></p><p></p><p>The higher in level you ascend then the greater the potential for min-maxing and thus the greater the potential power disparity.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm happy to hear all constructive criticism. But it has to be measured against the facts. </p><p></p><p>1. The game is exponentially more difficult to balance the higher you go.</p><p>2. The game is exponentially easier to abuse (min-max) the higher you go.</p><p>3. The game is exponentially more difficult to balance the greater the number of options you introduce (I have over 1300 in the book, the players handbook has about 80 feats and 250 spells by comparison)</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Thats like saying 90% of 20th-level Wizards are notably more powerful than a 20th-level Fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Its one of the more annoying powers to deal with but its not as all-encompassing as you make out.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Perhaps it has escaped your attention, but I have actually answered EACH AND EVERY SINGLE post or comment on the Eternity Publishing message boards for the past 4-5 years to do with problems or errata for both the Epic Bestiary and Ascension. In fact I basically answer every question thrown my way.</p><p></p><p>Same thing for anyone who has ever emailed me on such matters.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Upper_Krust, post: 5776813, member: 326"] Hey Buugipopuu! :) Before I respond to your points, lets just address a few things about game balance. Firstly, perfect game balance isn't achievable in an rpg as far reaching as D&D. Its a goal to aspire to certainly, but at a certain point you have to let it go. Secondly, the higher in level you go (in 3/3.5E anyway) the more difficult the game is to keep balanced and the easier it is to abuse with min-maxing. My mistake I thought you meant the spell rather than the Divine Ability. Incidently to shapechange into an Astral Hydra you would need to be at least Level 58, in divine terms that means you should be bordering on an Intermediate Deity. Well, firstly it wouldn't be 60 damage at 58 Hit Dice, now would it. Secondly, you could argue that the Astral Hydra should really only get 2 breaths every round. You do need to have encountered the monster you are shapechanging into of course. Yet you seem to be listing MULTIPLE abilites as required to (in your own words) 'accomplish anything' (as per the next quote). If you are 'requiring' MULTIPLE divine and cosmic abilities then you are encroaching on ECL 100 play as it is. So some powers are less effective than others, how is this any different from spells and feats? I've read the sentence multiple times and I cannot make head nor tail of it. I'm flattered that you are so invested in the book that you put in the time. Glad you are getting so much out of it. :) Your fix is what? I've always thought that attack was the best defence. :D ...and thus ECL 160-200 which is borderline where the game is loosely balanced to (even by my definition of the term in your eyes). You're stacking multiple abilities to get a benefit better than single abilities. Just because some powers are not as effective in combat as others doesn't mean they are unbalanced. Thieving [Effect] is the perfect example of this. LOL! Actually some people play to roleplay, not roll-play. Hardly universally beneficial for combat though. "Wonderfully balanced" as in, balanced to the same extent as the Core Rules or Epic Level Handbook. I'm happy to go over any Divine Abilities you think are notably too powerful or too weak. Feel free to list them. Cosmic abilities are potentially a different matter. Unattainable until ECL 60+ and even then, you can't get 2 Cosmic Abilities until about ECL 120+. Plus they are esoteric powers, meaning the deity would have to find them first. I'll defer to your power gaming knowledge on this one. That seems to be all you're doing. From what you have said above you must stand over the shoulder of your fellow gamers and say "Don't take that power take this one because otherwise you are no use to our party." On the contrary, in the Challenge Ratings/Encounter Level document (free pdf) I actually specifically explained to DMs how to tackle the difference between Basic Groups and Min-Maxed Power Gamers. The idea that min-maxing makes a difference is hardly a revelation. Of course it makes a difference - thats the whole point of it! :lol: The higher in level you ascend then the greater the potential for min-maxing and thus the greater the potential power disparity. I'm happy to hear all constructive criticism. But it has to be measured against the facts. 1. The game is exponentially more difficult to balance the higher you go. 2. The game is exponentially easier to abuse (min-max) the higher you go. 3. The game is exponentially more difficult to balance the greater the number of options you introduce (I have over 1300 in the book, the players handbook has about 80 feats and 250 spells by comparison) Thats like saying 90% of 20th-level Wizards are notably more powerful than a 20th-level Fighter. Its one of the more annoying powers to deal with but its not as all-encompassing as you make out. Perhaps it has escaped your attention, but I have actually answered EACH AND EVERY SINGLE post or comment on the Eternity Publishing message boards for the past 4-5 years to do with problems or errata for both the Epic Bestiary and Ascension. In fact I basically answer every question thrown my way. Same thing for anyone who has ever emailed me on such matters. [/QUOTE]
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