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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Buugipopuu" data-source="post: 5777131" data-attributes="member: 41173">If U_K doesn't want people going on about problems, he shouldn't insist that there are no problems.  If even you admit that the game is unbalanced, surely you should see why he shouldn't be able to get away with claims pertaining to the IH and good balance.And yes, a perfectly balanced game can't exist, but calling the IH merely 'imperfect' is a massive understatement.  You can easily do a lot better.  Even a bad fighter in 3.5 stands a reasonable chance at at least doing some damage to a good one before he loses.  With the IH?  He'll be dead in one round, won't be capable of even touching the other guy's AC, and automatically loses initiative.  It takes a class which is pretty much munchkin-proof (straight core Fighter) and turns it into a complete disaster.If one build always annihilates many others, then there's no point in using any of those obsolete builds.  They'll get used none of the time, which is not a very high proportion.  And it's not even a matter of power gaming over role playing, since if you even want to be able to play the game at all, you'll not use a bad build, because you can't role play when you're dead."That's just how he writes" isn't an excuse.  And I object to the use of the term "pace".  That implies that errata are being release, albeit slowly.  Upper_Krust will never publish a collection of errata for the IH.  It will forever be unfinished.You should?  Where does it say that?  What's wrong with 58 HD Prophets or Quasi-Deities?No, you're right, at 58 HD, your 2 DvA slots only net you 58 damage on average every 1d4 rounds.  That's even worse.  And if the Astral Hydra only gets two breaths every round, Greater Divine Breath only gets 0.25 breaths every round.  Which again, isn't an improvement.Doesn't say that in the ability writeup.  Is this another case where the DM makes something up?Haha, no.  Multiple divine abilities (I didn't mention a single cosmic in the next quote) can be obtained at very low levels.  At ECL 40, less than half of your cutoff, you've got an effective nineteen DvA slots, more if you take a Divine Handicap.Also, good back-pedalling there.  Before, it was "up to level 100 is balanced", but now it's "as long as you're not even close to level 100, it's balanced".Ban it.  Even if it weren't overpowered, it treads on the toes of casters and wild shapers.  There's no reason for a DvA that renders an entire class obsolete.Because if you have a few bad feats, the worst that happens is that you'll be a few points behind the damage curve, or maybe be slightly less versatile, or specialised at a technique that comes up rarely.  If you have a few bad DvAs, you can't do anything at all and all the monsters you encounter will laugh at your puny attack bonus as it pings off their invincible armour before grinding you into the ground in a single full-power-attack.So you're admitting that your game is unbalanced in favour of offensive abilities.  I'm not seeing your case for "wonderful balance" here.Actually, in this case, the opposite is true.  Since the AC-boosting ability scales with DvR while the Attack boosting one scales with ECL, this is the best case scenario.  Every other combination of levels and divinity templates is even worse for you.  Your ignorance to the numerical implications of your own system is telling.Okay, compare Cexpertise+Combat Mastery+Improved Combat Expertise+Heavenly Mind to Dodge+Improved Dodge+Supreme Dodge+Uncanny Dodge.  They provide the same bonus type, for the same cost, yet the secondary benefit of the first group (since the primary benefit is increased attack bonus) is 50% better than the only benefit of the second.  And the first one scales better with higher Wis.  Need to get better at dodging things?  No, don't take dodging-related abilities, just get better at punching things.It's not effective in combat at all.  It literally does nothing.  Superior Thieving Hand, given to a minimum HD lesser deity for free, can steal 30,030gp's worth of wealth per use, at a level where notable equipment is worth millions.  You can't use it to steal artefacts, because they're too expensive.  You can use it to steal money, but money is worthless.  You can't use it to steal anything plot-related, since the mere act of anyone at that level caring about something means it's going to be worth hundreds of thousands of gold at least.  And out of combat?  Then you can just steal things normally, so it's not useful then either.  Unless you want to use Thieving Breath to hoover up all the money from cities just to annoy them (since the entire wealth content of a city is basically pocket change to you).  Its only use is being a dick to people much lower level than you.  If an ability has no means of significantly affecting the world at levels at which it's available, it's unbalanced.You can't role play if you're dead.  Which will be approximately six seconds into the first fight if you don't know what you're doing with the IH.  And if you're not planning on getting into any fights, you're probably better off playing a game other than Dungeons and Dragons.At least I tried.  You just threw an ability out there that provided no mechanical benefit whatsoever, in or out of combat.Back-pedalling again, are we?  Nobody thinks the core rules are wonderfully balanced.  3.5e is a notoriously poorly balanced system (as people keep saying), and the ELH has the Epic Spell system, quite possibly the least well balanced magic system ever constructed.Oh, you can adjust the encounter level of encounters.  That's going to make the underpowered members of the party feel so much better that they're being overshadowed by the effective ones.  Now they don't get to do anything and don't get as much XP.  It's a win-win situation.So if you were aware of this, why make claims pertaining to balance?Okay, so we've done Thieving Effect, which is useless.  Sweat Born is useless, and in fact actively detrimental in many cases (you get a child with needs immediately, rather than an egg you can stick in an incubator), and is an Epic Feat at best.  X-Ray Vision is next to useless.  You can spend several rounds concentrating to look through walls, as long as they're not lead lined (and anyone relevant at Epic can afford to lead line everything they build, and will do so as a divination protection anyway)  Woo.  Not worth a DvA unless the Concentration requirement is dropped and the range is buffed.  Weapon Breaking is basically worthless, since anyone who can threaten you will be capable of damaging you past your DR, so it never procs.  Unyielding Damage Reduction is even worse, since it damages people, who have more HP than weapons, and is going to deal 30 damage a hit at best.  Not that it will ever proc since nobody that weak would ever consider meleeing anything.  Weapon Depreciation  is a limited-use version of Heavenly Body that only works against magic weapons of a specific type (also it prevents a pathetic amount of damage, but attack bonus is important, and damage is not).  Heavenly Body is already a weak ability, so one that works less than one third of the time is definitely too weak.  Spell Shot is massively overpriced.  Probably, but you didn't actually explain what it does, so I guess we'll never know.  Since it requires a Free Action, Spell Absorption doesn't work when it's not your turn, making it almost useless.  Silver Tongue lets you use Quickened Charm Monster with an irrelevant DC at will.  Woo.  Useless against anything you'd actually need to use  it on.  Self Mastery as written only provides decapitation immunity, which is sufficiently rare as to be a waste of a divine (especially as Mutability gives that and more for the same cost).  Quickness is overpriced.  You just don't stay in combat for that many rounds in a day to make taking Blinding Speed more than twice worth it, even if you don't have access to casters who can Haste you.  It /might/ be worth it if it were Ex, and that's still tenuous.  Perfect Mind and Perfect Body are worthless, since everyone gets infinite sub-epic wealth for free, and Wish as an SLA.  Fights are so short that Mercurial will never really be worth a DvA.  Goetic Blood is a liability.  Useless most of the time because the summons it creates will probably be ignored, and as soon as you come up against someone with a Cleave-based build, you'll find yourself accidentally giving them as many free attacks as it takes to kill you.  Force Field is the king of all weak DvAs.  Its protection from special attacks ability rarely comes into play because its HP is so pathetic.  Could be buffed massively and still be weak.  Enlarge Aura is a waste of time.  Divine Auras are  huge, and there's not really that much to be gained from making them bigger.  Similarly, the Superior Aura abilities are all a waste of slots because their DCs are so low as to be irrelevant, and the Morale bonuses aren't worth spending that many DvAs on.  Divine Sorcery is obsoleted by Anyfeat.  Blood Strike looks really bad next to all the Power Attack boosting abilities.  Trading damage 1:1 with an opponent is barely worth a feat, let alone a DvA.  Definitely needs a better ratio.  Asport is DC Irrelevant again.  Although if the DC were any good it would immediately become massively overpowered, so there's little to be done for it.  Aligned Effect is worse than the already weak Energy Effect.  +1 damage per die isn't worth an effect which does nothing more than 2/3rds of the time.  Apocrypha is almost useless since most Divination abilities don't give a save.Shapechange has been done.  Anyfeat lets Sorcerers gain the equivalent of Enlightened as soon as they can take DvAs, despite Enlightened being a Cosmic ability.  It also has serious issues with interacting with Permanent Emanation.  Diseased effect and Negative Energy Effect will take someone out of a fight in a single hit.  There's no need for them to be that much better than Withering, which is already good.  Superior Critical Multiplier is the prime 'megadamage' offender.  Should be a Cosmic (and Greater Critical Multiplier should be a Divine).  Squamous and its ilk are better than actual armour, they obsolete magical armour except as a receptacle for Exoskeleton.  Nescient has no applications that aren't of dubious validity.  Cozen is horrendous.  It doesn't allow a save, and a full attack from a thief will probably strip someone of all their DvAs, granting the thief a huge power boost in the process.  Bane Effect and Bane guard are made hilarious by Animus, as they apply against everything.  Bane Effect is especially bad, since it outdamages Divine Effect by a factor of three, and is actually of a better damage type.  And I'll save the biggest problem for last.  All of the X ability score to Y stat abilities are so good that having one is essential, and two is recommended as soon as you can afford it.  SAD is horrible for variety, and all of those abilities enforce one-ability-score builds across the board.  With them, a Sorcerer going up against a Barbarian in an Antimagic Field would probably end with the Sorcerer winning. In melee.  With his bare hands.You'll note that 60 is a smaller number than 100.That's not power gaming.  That's just not wanting to be useless.  Getting infinite damage with a pair of light maces using your Threat Range abilities is power gaming.  A Sunwyrm Incarnate 22 Warblade 20 Fighter 20 Demi-Deity of Sky and Sun who can fly at three times the speed of sound, auto-wins initiative and gets 26 attacks per round against a target's flat-footed touch AC and then swift-moves into the ground beyond the reach of any retaliation is power gaming.  A Star Elf Warblade 20 Eternal Blade 10 Annointed Knight 10 Dervish 10 Lesser Deity of Swords and Knowledge who gets 105 attacks per round, goes first even if she loses initiative, and adds Int twice to everything (except AC, which is three times) is power gaming.  Robilars builds which get six AoOs every time anyone does anything within 30 feet of them and interrupt full attacks with Wind Strike are power gaming.  Wizards who use Green Star Adept to qualify for Adamantine Body at ECL 30 and proceed to wrestle things twice their level to submission is power gaming.  Gods of Death and Magic with nothing but Automatic Metamagic Capacity who can cast Energy Drain so many times in one round that they can kill Neutronium Golems in one shot, despite said Golems being immune to both Avasculate and Magic is power gaming.  Nothing single-classed core-only builds can accomplish is even remotely similar to what happens when a power gamer gets hold of your rules.No it isn't, since a single ability choice involves nowhere near the amount of commitment a 20-level build involves.  It's like saying 90% of all characters who took Improved Overrun are notably more powerful than characters who didn't.  I challenge you to find a single feat (because that's what DvAs are the equivalent of) in core that you can just stick on any build to make it notably more powerful than any other build lacking it."It was inevitable that this product was going to be unbalanced" is not a justification for going around calling your product balanced.So, you're a Demi Deity Monk 42.  How do you beat someone with Nullification (which is perfectly obtainable at this level)?I should not have to read all the hundreds of posts-long threads to find a ruling on something.  That's not what an erratum is.  If it's not compiled in a document that can be referenced at the table, it's basically useless.</blockquote>

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