D&D 3E/3.5 Questions on 3.5 Epic Incarnate Rules

[Dremoth]

Greetings everyone.

I have a slew of questions about some rulings for D&D 3.5 Epic game play. I am playing in a game that will soon be reaching epic levels and none of the players or the GM has ever played into this level of characters before. As it stands these characters are our highest characters to date in our six year game play experience with D&D.

For everything possible I would like to get page numbers and references to written material if possible, the GM has a real tendency to run things exactly as written and I may need proof I can point at to show him.

Issue number 1.

One of the players, myself, is playing a Incarnate from MoI and at 20th level gains an ability that transforms the character into an Outsider type with the alignment subtype. At level 21 can this character instead of taking levels in epic Incarnate, or any other class, take Hit Die levels in the Outsider template?

If this is true that he can advance as a Outsider what benefits would that entail at epic levels? Since both saves and BaB no longer progress at epic levels it would seem like most of the point of it is lost. However I noticed that Outsiders in the Monster Manual can have more than 20 HD and more than 20 BaB.

So the question is this, does BaB and saves gained from a Hit Die instead of a classes stack past +20?

Issue number 2.

While we are on this subject and class feature there is a sub question me and the GM debated for a while before coming to the conclusion that we could not confirm a ruling. When the character gains the class feature (True Incarnation) it is described as a transformation. An Outsider is described as having full BaB, all good saves, 8+Int skills, and d8 hit dice, does this mean that the character will adjust his character to those statistics for Incarnate (changing their stats for all prior levels) or just gains the types and that’s it.

If they do not gain the changes to their past levels what gain does the character get? Leading me to…

Issue number 3.

I know when a devil is destroyed in the Material Plane they dissipate, gear and all, and return back to the Nine Hells. I’m fairly confident that this is also true for Celestials like Angels, but what I need to know is this: when an Incarnate hits True Incarnation at level 20 what happens if they are killed on the Material Plane?

My guess would be that they would dissipate to a Plane most associated with their sub type (alignment) picked by the individual Incarnate. What I need to know is a page reference that shows text stating all Outsiders killed on the Material Plane dissipate and return to their normal Plane.

Issue number 4.

Epic levels of course mean epic spells, feats, and more. Having never walked into this world before I would like some heads up on terrible things that will break games, builds that crush souls, and other Epic level experiences.

Our crew is a Cleric, a Sorcerer, a Archivist, and an Incarnate. The Incarnate, myself, is the only real melee in the party while everyone else is casting focused. What is the worst case scenario for each build upon reach mid 20s in level, maybe 30.

Also I have read whispers of people mentioning massive bonuses to stats (+100?) and I have not been able to figure out where this could be obtained. Anyone care to explain?



That should cover my first wave of questions, these characters are not “optimal” in the way a lot of online players would design. Mostly we just want to get a little more information on what we are walking into and how to best enjoy it.

Thanks for all of assistance, let me know what your thoughts are.

 

[emoplato]

Greetings everyone.

I have a slew of questions about some rulings for D&D 3.5 Epic game play. I am playing in a game that will soon be reaching epic levels and none of the players or the GM has ever played into this level of characters before. As it stands these characters are our highest characters to date in our six year game play experience with D&D.

For everything possible I would like to get page numbers and references to written material if possible, the GM has a real tendency to run things exactly as written and I may need proof I can point at to show him.

Issue number 1.

One of the players, myself, is playing a Incarnate from MoI and at 20th level gains an ability that transforms the character into an Outsider type with the alignment subtype. At level 21 can this character instead of taking levels in epic Incarnate, or any other class, take Hit Die levels in the Outsider template?

If this is true that he can advance as a Outsider what benefits would that entail at epic levels? Since both saves and BaB no longer progress at epic levels it would seem like most of the point of it is lost. However I noticed that Outsiders in the Monster Manual can have more than 20 HD and more than 20 BaB.

So the question is this, does BaB and saves gained from a Hit Die instead of a classes stack past +20?

Issue number 2.

While we are on this subject and class feature there is a sub question me and the GM debated for a while before coming to the conclusion that we could not confirm a ruling. When the character gains the class feature (True Incarnation) it is described as a transformation. An Outsider is described as having full BaB, all good saves, 8+Int skills, and d8 hit dice, does this mean that the character will adjust his character to those statistics for Incarnate (changing their stats for all prior levels) or just gains the types and that’s it.

If they do not gain the changes to their past levels what gain does the character get? Leading me to…

Issue number 3.

I know when a devil is destroyed in the Material Plane they dissipate, gear and all, and return back to the Nine Hells. I’m fairly confident that this is also true for Celestials like Angels, but what I need to know is this: when an Incarnate hits True Incarnation at level 20 what happens if they are killed on the Material Plane?

My guess would be that they would dissipate to a Plane most associated with their sub type (alignment) picked by the individual Incarnate. What I need to know is a page reference that shows text stating all Outsiders killed on the Material Plane dissipate and return to their normal Plane.

Issue number 4.

Epic levels of course mean epic spells, feats, and more. Having never walked into this world before I would like some heads up on terrible things that will break games, builds that crush souls, and other Epic level experiences.

Our crew is a Cleric, a Sorcerer, a Archivist, and an Incarnate. The Incarnate, myself, is the only real melee in the party while everyone else is casting focused. What is the worst case scenario for each build upon reach mid 20s in level, maybe 30.

Also I have read whispers of people mentioning massive bonuses to stats (+100?) and I have not been able to figure out where this could be obtained. Anyone care to explain?



That should cover my first wave of questions, these characters are not “optimal” in the way a lot of online players would design. Mostly we just want to get a little more information on what we are walking into and how to best enjoy it.

Thanks for all of assistance, let me know what your thoughts are.

Issue 1- Actually you still do advance with both BAB and saves you just don't get more iterative attacks based upon it. What I have seen usually is that feat progression goes way up, in those levels, but consult the Epic Level Handbook for more detail. No, you don't get outsider racial hit die benefits you just gain the subtype, those are for actual creatures of the other planes. All this means is that you are considered an outsider for dealing with effects and qualifications of abilities.
Issue 2- I mean if you can find a template with its own hit die then it may be possible, but I don't think there are any that isn't how they work. I guess you could look at demi-urge divine minion stuff if you really want to explore being an actual outsider and possible god.
Issue 3- That would be correct unless the ability says otherwise.
Issue 4- Well that is a very broad category and it really of course depends on what the people have got already. As for insane stat building there is of course the almighty Pun-Pun, the dragonwrought loredrake kobold sorcerer/master transmografist that uses an alternate form's special ability and familiar to store and stack attribute bonuses from shape shifting into different creatures. There is also the Cancer Mage/Festering anger combo giving people a permanent +2 strength per day of in game time. Also I would argue don't let anyone take symbiotic template that thing is a train wreck of broken combinations waiting to happen because of its weird advancement and stat layout. It essentially takes two creatures of the monstrous/humanoid, vermin, animal, or plat types one effectively two sizes larger than the other. The physical attributes and HD of the host(big) is spliced with the mental attributes of the guest(small), than the saves are worked to whichever have the best of each while retaining both of the creatures abilities. Either one can even make a secondary attack or use one standard equivalent action if the other makes its full action, for a mere LA+1.

 

[the Jester]

Issue number 1.

One of the players, myself, is playing a Incarnate from MoI and at 20th level gains an ability that transforms the character into an Outsider type with the alignment subtype. At level 21 can this character instead of taking levels in epic Incarnate, or any other class, take Hit Die levels in the Outsider template?

No.

First off, outsider is a type, not a template. It also isn't a class. You cannot take levels in "outsider" any more than you can take levels in "humanoid".

Issue number 2.

While we are on this subject and class feature there is a sub question me and the GM debated for a while before coming to the conclusion that we could not confirm a ruling. When the character gains the class feature (True Incarnation) it is described as a transformation. An Outsider is described as having full BaB, all good saves, 8+Int skills, and d8 hit dice, does this mean that the character will adjust his character to those statistics for Incarnate (changing their stats for all prior levels) or just gains the types and that’s it.

No. You gain the type, which (among other things) means you are no longer subject to spells and effects that target humanoids (charm person, etc). As far as what else you get- what else does the class description say you get? That's it.

Issue number 3.

I know when a devil is destroyed in the Material Plane they dissipate, gear and all, and return back to the Nine Hells. I’m fairly confident that this is also true for Celestials like Angels, but what I need to know is this: when an Incarnate hits True Incarnation at level 20 what happens if they are killed on the Material Plane?

It dies.

Caveat: I don't have MoI, so I may be missing some key details; however, if so, they would be explicitly written out in the text of the class.

 

[the Jester]

Issue 3- That would be correct unless the ability says otherwise.

Where do you get this from?

From the 3.5 Monster Manual, under "outsider" on page 313:

Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature- its soul and body for one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype (see page 312) can be raised, reincarnated or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.

AFAIK there is no mention anywhere in 3e that outsiders in general discorporate and go to their home planes upon death. There are probably some specific exceptions, but it is NOT a general rule.