Questions on Giant Vermin

[Pielorinho]

This is a nifty spell which I much like; however, its description leaves something to be desired. A few questions:

1) Am I right in thinking that a spider's (for example) poison increases in DC as the caster goes from 9th to 10 level, but a wasp's poison doesn't? A 9th-level caster creates a large vermin as compared to a 10th-level caster's huge vermin. The monster manual lists different poison DCs for large and huge spiders (and centipedes, scorpions, etc.), but giant wasps come in only one size, and so there's only one poison DC listed.
2) There's a single attack bonus and damage listed for vermin created at various levels: at 10th level, for example, your vermin attack at +8 for 2d6+8 (I think) damage. How is this handled for scorpions or other vermin with multiple attacks? Does it get two claw and one tail attack at +8 for 2d6+8? Does it get two claws at +8 and one tail at +3?
3) Giant spiders can weave webs. At the end of the spell's duration, do the webs go away? If so, at the end of the spell's duration, do any poisons created by the vermin go away as well?
4) How do y'all break down the AC 14 for the giant vermin? I've been assuming that you apply their size penalty and their dex bonus, and then add enough natural armor to bring them up to 14; is that how you'd handle it? (This becomes important only if someone wants to make a touch attack vs. the vermin, or the vermin lose their dex bonus vs. an attack).
5) Some vermin (such as spiders) have nifty special attacks. Do they use these attacks intelligently? Does the spellcaster have to command them to use the attack? Can the spellcaster command them to use the attack?
6) Does this spell change at all under 3.5?

Thanks!
Daniel

 

[Camarath]

I am sorry to have to ask this but where can i find this spell?

 

[Pielorinho]

In the Player's Handbook .

Or in the SRD. In case it'll help, here's the spell's full description from the SRD:

Giant Vermin
Transmutation
Level: Clr 4, Drd 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to three vermin, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
The character turns one or more normal-sized insects, arachnids, or other vermin into larger forms resembling giant vermin. Only one type of vermin can be transmuted, and all must be grown to the same number of HD. he HD to which the vermin can be grown depends upon the character's level; see the accompanying table.

Caster Target’s New Armor Attack/ –——–—— Saves –—————
Level New HD Size Class Damage Fortitude Reflex Will
------ -------- ---- ----- ------- --------- ------ ----
7–9 3d8+6 Large 14 +4/1d8+4 +5 +0 +1
10–12 4d8+16 Huge 14 +8/2d6+8 +8 +0 +1
13–15 5d8+20 Huge 14 +8/2d6+8 +8 +0 +1
16–18 6d8+24 Huge 14 +9/2d6+8 +9 +1 +2
19–20 7d8+28 Huge 14 +9/2d6+8 +9 +1 +2
Any giant vermin created by this spell do not attempt to harm the character, but the character's control of such creatures is limited to simple. Orders to attack a certain creature when it appears or guard against a particular occurrence are too complex for the vermin to understand. Unless commanded to do otherwise, the giant vermin attack whoever or whatever is near them.

 

[Drasmir]

I don't believe that GIANT and MONSTROUS are the same thing here. I believe that the vermin are just made much larger and do not get poison attacks and such. For example, the listing for a Large Monstrous Spider (10 HD) shows that the attack roll modifier is +9 whereas the spell would make the attack roll modifier +8. Also, the damage is different, changing the Monstrous Spider from 2d6+6 to the Giant Spider's 2d6+8. I believe the intention of the spell is not to create monsterous vermin, but rather just to make a REALLY big normal vermin.

FYI- All of this is based on my reading of the rules so you may disagree.

 

[Pielorinho]

Drasmir, I notice that the SRD leaves out a clause in the Player's handbook, which states something along the lines of "Vermin enlarged by this spell may have other special abilities (poison, etc.) as described in the Monster Manual." Does anyone have their PHB handy and can quote this line?

How would you suggest handling poison DCs, webs, etc.? My understanding is that, except as described in the spell's chart, the created vermin are in all ways identical to the ones listed in the MM.

Daniel

 

[Drasmir]

I wondered the same thing about the SRD as they seem to leave out many things that are in the book. Unfortunately I do not have my books with me to verify. I'll try to check when I get home.

 

[Camarath]

In the Player's Handbook .

Or in the SRD. In case it'll help, here's the spell's full description from the SRD:

hahaha....GIant I must be crazy or at least can't spell worth anything. Nearly busted my GI track (Gut) when is realized giant doesn't begin with GA.

 

[Nareau]

I'd like to see how/if this spell changes in 3.5. I think one way to do it that might be easier would be to make up a table of which vermin you can create at each level (kinda like the list of which animals you can take as companions at each level). That way, it wouldn't deal so much with "which cool vermin can I get at this number of HD," and would deal more with "which cool vermin are more or less balanced at this caster level."

Otherwise, it might just be easier to come up with a "generic" stat block for the giant vermin at each level. So when a 10th level caster makes giant spiders, it's exactly as effective as when he makes giant wasps.

I only suggest these ideas as ways of making the spell easier to determine the balance of. Granted, it makes the spell much less cool and versatile.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure exactly how the rules should work.

Spider

 

[Pielorinho]

I'd like to see how/if this spell changes in 3.5. I think one way to do it that might be easier would be to make up a table of which vermin you can create at each level (kinda like the list of which animals you can take as companions at each level).

Otherwise, it might just be easier to come up with a "generic" stat block for the giant vermin at each level. So when a 10th level caster makes giant spiders, it's exactly as effective as when he makes giant wasps.

The first idea sounds workable; the second idea sounds terrible I think. Would a giant wasp be unable to fly, or would the spider be able to fly? Would the spider be unable to spin webs, or would a stag beetle have a webspinner too? Would a scorpion have no poison, or would a praying mantis have poison?

Daniel