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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7843979" data-attributes="member: 996">Maybe not /just/ because you're experienced.&nbsp; But, that was certainly the case in the classic game, from '74 through 1999...While you could do that in 3e or 4e - 3e made it easy to level up old enemies by, well, literally giving them class levels, and 4e's math was straightforward enough you could dial any creature up or down. A 3e 20th-level Goblin Warrior with no particularly interesting magic items was just going to be hitting you (4 times a round, if he stood relatively still), and would take a bit to beat down, but was otherwise uninteresting.&nbsp; But only because that's what the DM made him. (You could do the same thing in 5e, really, just make a goblin NPC Champion Fighter.)&nbsp; 4e was a little different.&nbsp; Monsters and PC were different, didn't use the same rules, and EL was relative to the PCs.&nbsp; So an ordinary goblin might be a level 1 or 2 'standard' skirimisher, but the same goblin (same 100 xp value) to a newly-paragon party of 11th level (or, really, any party much above 5th) could be statted as a level 9 or 10 &quot;Minion&quot; skirmisher.&nbsp;&nbsp; Putt hundreds of them together into a unit (&quot;swarm&quot;) and you can take them to a much higher level-equivalency.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, you could also, as in 3e, imagine a single goblin simply being higher level, just like the PCs, though if you used the DMG method of giving him a class &amp; level, he'd be an Elite with a few more, presumably more interesting, powers than the ordinary goblin.Early on, numbers were run, and, yeah, a hundred fairly ordinary archers could generate the DPR against high AC to hypothetically kill a dragon.&nbsp; There were many ways it could go wrong, dragon fear not least among them, though.But, in basic stats, until you bring AE magic &amp; the like into it, being outnumbered tells /very/ heavily in 5e, thanks to BA.&nbsp;The basic &quot;play loop&quot; is such a powerful DM tool, it's a real mistake to overlook it and cut straight to hypothetical checks.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7843979, member: 996"] Maybe not /just/ because you're experienced. But, that was certainly the case in the classic game, from '74 through 1999...While you [I]could[/I] do that in 3e or 4e - 3e made it easy to level up old enemies by, well, literally giving them class levels, and 4e's math was straightforward enough you could dial any creature up or down. A 3e 20th-level Goblin Warrior with no particularly interesting magic items was just going to be hitting you (4 times a round, if he stood relatively still), and would take a bit to beat down, but was otherwise uninteresting. But only because that's what the DM made him. (You could do the same thing in 5e, really, just make a goblin NPC Champion Fighter.) 4e was a little different. Monsters and PC were different, didn't use the same rules, and EL was relative to the PCs. So an ordinary goblin might be a level 1 or 2 'standard' skirimisher, but the [I]same goblin[/I] (same 100 xp value) to a newly-paragon party of 11th level (or, really, any party much above 5th) could be statted as a level 9 or 10 "Minion" skirmisher. Putt hundreds of them together into a unit ("swarm") and you can take them to a much higher level-equivalency. Of course, you could also, as in 3e, imagine a single goblin simply being higher level, just like the PCs, though if you used the DMG method of giving him a class & level, he'd be an Elite with a few more, presumably more interesting, powers than the ordinary goblin. Early on, numbers were run, and, yeah, a hundred fairly ordinary archers could generate the DPR against high AC to hypothetically kill a dragon. There were many ways it could go wrong, dragon fear not least among them, though. But, in basic stats, until you bring AE magic & the like into it, being outnumbered tells /very/ heavily in 5e, thanks to BA. The basic "play loop" is such a powerful DM tool, it's a real mistake to overlook it and cut straight to hypothetical checks. [/QUOTE]

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