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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gaiden" data-source="post: 1886739" data-attributes="member: 103">What is it with members of this board trying to hose rogues <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />.Check out the S.A. in O.M. thread for more discussion on this topic if anyone's interested.  I think a problem too many DM's suffer from is allowing the rules of the game to form a box around them, limiting them then just to what's inside.  The designation of rounds is completely arbitrary!  If the opponent is unaware of you, he loses his dex bonus - end of story.Maybe this arguement can convince the rules-blinded populous:  Why do you get S.A. while invisible?  It's not because your invisibile.  It's because the opponent can't react to you, no?  He can't see how to respond to your attacks if he knows you are there in the first place.  Is it not correct that this unawareness then is what is causing him to lose his dex bonus and that it doesn't matter at what point in a combat you are in for this loss of dex to apply?  So it doesn't really matter that you are invisible.  All that really matters is that your opponent cannot respond to you adequately.  In this case because he cannot see you.  What about at the start of a combat.  Let's say you are not invisible but are simply starting a combat.  What about that situation causes the opponent to lose their dex bonus.  If you'd insist upon "flatfootedness" as the reason, I'd simply reword the question:  what about flatfootedness causes the opponent to lose their dex bonus?  Because the rules say so...."shakes head in dismay".  They lose their dex bonus because again they cannot adequately respond to you.  What is similar in the invisible case and the start of combat case:  the opponent cannot respond to you appropriately.  In one case you are invisible and in one case visible.  Clearly, it is the lack of responsiveness that is key in losing your dex bonus.  If you are hidden, the opponent is unaware of you, no?  Let me be more specific, if you are hidden and your opponent was just stabbed by you but now cannot find you, he is unaware of your current location.  If he passes within 5' of you (and is still unaware of you) and you decide to attack, how is this different than the start of the round other than that arbitrary designation?  You are hidden, you are invisible, it is the beginning of combat, whatever, your opponent doesn't know you are there and doesn't know about the attack until your knife is entering his square (and hopefully his jugular):  he loses his dex, you get S.A.EDIT:  Can I get an AMEN, brother? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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