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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Revinor" data-source="post: 4113385" data-attributes="member: 25037">Donjon is very good example.Color of Donjon is very similar to D&D (it is actually a parody of D&D in many aspects). Let' suppose that you have search secret doors statistic. In D&D, you can tell game master you are looking for secret doors, he will consult the map he has done (or make up answer of the fly), probably roll in the secret and answer you "you don't find any".In Donjon, you roll the dice and get some degree of success (if you fail, nothing happens). For every degree of success you got, you can add one fact to the game. This means, that if you succeed secret door search, it is YOU who describe where they are and how they look. If you have another successes, you may add extra facts - what can you hear from behind them, that bit of light can be seen through the cracks, etc. It is then DM responsibility to continue, getting the facts you have added to game into account.Then, another player may want to listen on the door. Again - with one success, he can describe he hears 3 orc voices from behind. Or snoring troll. Or whatever.If you loot the monster/chest for treasure, you roll and you tell game master what you have found. Obviously, depending on the roll, you get different power of item - but it is absolutely up to you to decide on the type/kind of item/treasure you have found.Obviously, DM can almost always screw players if he really wants to. You have heard 3 orcs voices from behind the door? Cool, but after entering it turns out they also have 30 silent goblin fanatics with them which you have not heard. You have found a door which lead to treasure room? Too bad they are trapped and after opening a cave in happens. Obviously, going this route will kill the joy of the game very fast, but it is still DM who takes player facts and enriches them/puts them into bigger context.With the single exception of combat, entire system is focused on facts management and player control over game. It is quite specific resolution system - nobody said narrativist systems cannot have mechanical rules. But the very basic idea behind it is that player rolls to control the story, instead of simulating the 'reality'. Combat part in Donjon is probably gamist (it is D&D parody after all), with opposed rolls damaging player/monster statistics. It has a side effect of making people damaged in combat less likely to get high success degrees.Such aspects are mostly missing from normal D&D. One example I have given can be TPK in 4e. Instead of rolling new characters, DM can speak with players, discuss the fact that they were defeated and ask for the options. One of the players can propose - "They were bandits, we look rich, maybe they have considered taking us hostage to get a ransom from our friends in the castle?". DM would agree and describe the situation after they wake up in some dark hole in the forest, tied and seeing one more prisoner whom they know from other adventure, etc, etc... I suppose that even if it is not player who comes with this idea and DM just does it, it also smells a bit narrativist. Obviously, having a rule in DMG which says "After TPK, roll d20. On results 1-10, players are captured, on 11-20 they are killed", is again back into other camps. Same rule presented as "After TPK, roll d20. On results 1-10, players can come up with convincing plan of how they survived (pending DM acceptance), on 11-20 they are killed" is already a step into narrativism.Once again, please note that nobody says D&D should be narrativist game system. It fits it's bill very good as gamist + small simulation system. I prefer 4e over 1st concept of simulation over game (all the overdeadly dungeons killing people for one bad roll just because it is 'real'). But let's not put it into 'narrativist' category, as it is really not a system about that.Obviously, there are some people who were mixing narrativism into D&D gameplay. I have no problem with joined creation of the world together with players and resolving some of the player wishes/inputs on metagame level instead of in-game-world level. But this is DM, system itself is not giving any tools to make this part a 'game', nor it is encouraging such behaviour in any way.</blockquote>

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